Watching Lebron run away from the responsibility of taking shots in the 4th quarter made it pretty clear that he will never come close to even being in the same conversation as Michael when it comes to GOAT.

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That sums it up perfectly.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Lebron passed Kobe years ago. I don't even know how it's possible to argue that Bryant is better unless you use the horrible "sort by ring count" method.

Lebron's work in Miami is tainted by being with two of the best players in the league and even then they still had some pretty big failures.

Honestly, what he did with Cleveland this year is more important to his legacy than anything he did in Miami.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Lebron was definitively the best player on his team in Miami in a way that Bryant most certainly was not for his first 3 rings.

Lebron was not definitively the best player on the first title team. He probably was the best but Wade was close.

He was on the second one.

Wade and Bosh were both future hall of famers in their primes at a time when the league was fairly watered down, and they still lost two Finals.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I am not saying Lebron's body of work is above reproach. I'm saying it's clearly better than Bryant's, who relied on the peak version of one of the most dominant big men in the history of the league for his first 3 rings and proceeded to do nothing for years until being joined by another future hall of famer in Gasol. Lebron losing in the finals is still a better reflection on him than Kobe-led teams not even making the playoffs or bowing out in the first round.

I don't put much stock into losing in the Finals especially when the perception is that the conference you play in is by far the weaker of the two.

But, if you are putting that much stock into what Shaq did then wouldn't Shaq actually be a better player than Lebron still? Those Lakers teams were all time great teams. If Kobe was basically just carried by Shaq then Shaq has to be better than Lebron right?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I agree the east has been garbage so the finals streak is a bit overrated, but I would definitely put stock in at least his 2007 finals loss. That team was utter garbage outside of James, arguably even worse than the teams when poor Kobe had "no support" and so couldn't be expected to do anything. And again, while the East has definitely been a weaker conference, I would still expect a player Lebron "has a lot of work to do to catch" to be capable of at least making the playoffs continuously as his team's best player.

No one made any argument about Shaq. I think Shaq/Lebron/Duncan are pretty close, but they're all clearly superior to Kobe.

I'm not sure how it's possible to argue LeBron is better. Scoring and how you perform under pressure matters. If not Karl Malone would be a top 10 to 15 player.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Well then you can just swap them out with my original statement then.

In hindsight, I give Kobe more credit for the first three titles than I initially did. Shaq was dominant but he was somewhat useless towards the end of games. Kobe was able to play a poor mans MJ for that.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

But Bryant's clutch stats are in fact terrible.

Yes Shaq mattered but Kobe got his reputation because he consistently delivered when it mattered. He was never afraid of the moment. People forget that Shaq could be a liability in the 4th. Jordan doesn't win without Scottie and Shaq doesn't win without Kobe.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

I'm glad you agree that Kobe was Robin to Shaq's Batman. That puts his ring count as his team's best player at 2 to Lebron's 3.

Uh, Shaq did win without Kobe. Anyone who thinks Kobe was a greater player than Shaq really doesn't understand basketball.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

Over time you're probably going to miss more than you take. No one watched the Lakers with or without Shaq and thought Kobe shouldn't shoot the ball down the stretch.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Whoah! Let's pump the brakes a bit.

Shaq has won without Kobe and he was good enough that eventually those Laker teams would've have won at least once. And Kobe, while great, has taken a lot of bad shots over the years, especially at crunch time.

And I'm not as confident that Kobe would've won on his own without Gasol.

They're not bad in terms of missing more than he makes, they're bad in terms of his peers apparently being more clutch than him. But something something Black Mamba, will to win.

That's ridiculous. They don't win without Kobe's 4th quarter heroics. Shaq has always needed that. He got that from Wade in Miami and Penny almost made it happen in Orlando.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Lebron > Kobe

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Dwyane Wade in 2006 was so much better than Gasol or anyone else Kobe played with post-Shaq. You can't discredit Kobe's two extra titles and at the same time praise Shaq for his one extra.

Kobe was also one of the best players in the league during the three peat. It's completely disingenuous to imply Shaq carried those teams.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

If you're saying that with the game on the line you would rather give the ball to anyone else besides Mike or Bird then there is really nothing to talk about. The need to diminish the greatness of Kobe by MANY will never make sense to me.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

I liked Kobe... I just don't think he's as good as Lebron.

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I'd be fine with him if his stans didn't so consistently inflate his supposed greatness with hyperbole and untrue claims.

Next to Wilt no one was as dominant as Shaq but I think Kobe was better.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!