I solved this problem many years ago. I gave up Lent for Lent. Oh, and we raised our kids Lutheran rather than Catholic, and we found out eating meat on Friday is ok. They had some luncheon on a Friday and served meat. That's how we found out.

_________________
Hawaii (fuck) You

Most people are religious for the same reason they are a fan of a certain sports team. It is part geography and it is part what your parents were. I guess some people are front running religious people like the Chicago Packers fans also.

Becoming "less religious" is just a slow transformation in realizing that you aren't religious at all. Rejecting part of the teachings of your local church should logically make you question all of the things they say and then eventually you realize you can still believe in some sort of higher power without dealing with all of the BS that every church spews. I just don't see how you can say "Well, they are wrong about X, Y, and Z but I'll still trust they are right with the other stuff".

I think JORR is bringing up some pretty good points and they are true for all religions. Some are just more restrictive and oppressive than others in this current time. I'm sure 500 years ago Nas of Kent and IMU the shoe cobbler were saying similar things about excusing Christianity for their wrong ideas because it is "just a lose set of morals to follow".

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I can't say for sure if I was 500 years ago...but I have been during my ~10 years on this board. For all religions.

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

If it helps, I know, for a fact, that many Jews eat bacon and lots of Muslims drink alcohol.

_________________

So, for Islam or Christianity, or any religion, where do we draw the line? At what point is one not a Muslim or Christian or whatever else?

_________________

I am coming to this discussion very late. It looks detailed so I may not get to anything but this last page.

Your statement is incorrect. It's my belief that its and immature faith if it hasn't been internally questioned. The writings of saints reveal several occasions where the best of the best became "less religious."

Lord make me chaste...just not yet.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

So, after you questioned it, what made you decide it was a good idea?

_________________

What do you mean by it? Catholicism, theism...I haven't read the overnight conversation so I don't have context.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Of course it should be questioned but if you are discovering you don't like the answers then you are simply on a path to not being religious at all at least in terms of that religion. The next step is to act like it is just a "loose collection of ways to act" but then you realize that you don't need to go to church every Sunday to figure out that the basic stuff is pretty obvious with or without religion.

Imagine a scenario where you are unable to attend your church for 5 straight years. Let's say you get sent to Mars. Do you not come back with roughly the same moral code or maybe even a better one?

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

You're making a bad argument or possibly just a bad faith argument. You're actually taking the position an atheist takes, that morality is independent from religion.

The whole "voices in your head" thing is outlandish. The only way you could get away with saying you follow voices in your head is under the protection of religion. Try telling your boss you did something because the voices in your head told you to. Aside from that, once one begins following voices in his head rather than the doctrines of a particular faith, he is no longer a member of that religion. Jim Jones and David Koresh followed voices in their heads.

There's a lot of disingenuity to the position you're taking on this. We grant special status to certain religions based upon their age, history, traditions, etc. In the West this is especially true for the Abrahamic religions. That's why W_Z can mock Scientology all day long without being called a bigot. But now you seem to want to maintain this special status while at the same time abandoning the traditions and rules of these religions.

_________________
Ecclesiastes 5:8

I haven't read this whole thread either, nor did I participate in the religious discussion. My question doesn't involve it, though.

I'm just asking - if you internally questioned your faith and are still faithful - what conclusions did you draw from your internal questioning that validated your faith as worthwhile?

_________________

but there are those who question and like the answers, so while becoming less religious might be a slow transformation to not religious for some, it is also a regular path taken for those who renew their beliefs.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

but you see what I'm asking, I can give you why I believe in God and I can give you why I believe Catholicism is the best way for me to access God

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

reassign the locus to your gut and people will take it as a universal truth held over centuries

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

What status am I asking for?

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

God sounds like a moron if you only believe a certain percentage of what he says.

_________________

In that case I would say that you are still on the path to not being religious. You can change and suddenly start accepting the answers you didn't like before but that doesn't mean that doesn't mean becoming less religious isn't simply working towards not being religious at all.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

You seem to be saying that a person can be a member of a religion while following something besides the doctrine of said religion, i.e. following "voices in his head". The only thing standing between declaring a person a ridiculous nutjob for believing the crazy ideas of a religion is the venerability and history of said religion. If you and I invented Islam this afternoon, everyone here would call us whack jobs. You expressed the idea that a person can basically invent his own custom religion and he should automatically have those ideas respected. You may consider Chrisitianity and Islam somehow more "real" than Scientology, but I don't.

_________________
Ecclesiastes 5:8

Why would God be the moron if that were true?

Catholicism doesn't contend that the Bible is an accurate historical document nor that everything within it should be followed.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Then everyone but the most ignorant are on a path to less religious.

_________________
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Probably true, or at least it should be.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I don't believe a single thing God tells me. Sounds like I'm on the path to being the pope.

_________________

You're really into the "voices in his head" line, aren't you?

Making moral choices based on your life and what you believe is "the voice(s) in your head." We're not talking about nutters... I was clear...you can try to misconstrue as you often do though. I have no reason to waste my time trying to fix the voices in your head. But I will defend anyone's right to follow a religion and yet still choose to make reasonable / moral decisions that defy unimportant portions of that religion's doctrines. Cannot eat pork? Unimportant. Must spread the gospel to everyone you meet? Stupid.

etc etc

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

What are the important parts of religious doctrine?

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

For me, it mainly focuses on the "don't do terrible shit to you yourself, to others and to the world around you" stuff.

If I'm chugging through life living honestly and trying to do good things...I'm going to be alright when whatever comes finally comes. And if not...I'm still going to be happy with the way I lived...and fuck anyone or anything trying to judge me differently.

Don't give me freewill if you don't want me to use it.

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Isn't it defined by the respective religion what a good Muslim, Christian, Buddhist and so on is? Running around and around trying to define it from an outsider's point of you doesn't really mean all that much.

_________________
Elections have consequences.

That really isn't a defining characteristic of religious people and it is unlikely that religion has anything to do with it.

I've never been to a Sunday service. My religious exposure comes from weddings and good dolphin. I somehow figured the same thing out.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

That seems a perfectly fine way to go through life. It does not however align you with any particular religion that you or anyone should claim to be. If one says I will follow the golden rule and nothing more then they can say they align with some thoughts of a religion but they probably shouldn't claim to be one of the many Christian sects I think.

_________________
Elections have consequences.

You're not wrong. Believe me...I'm not one to heavily espouse the virtues of the major religions and how it is necessary to live life to fulfillment.

But there are the folks that are for more "organized religious" than I am and they feel a need for more direct guidance through following tenants more closely...through a closer relationship with the Bible / Torah / Quran. And that is okay.

edit: I'm Lutheran. I was baptized. They haven't kicked me out and I haven't quit. So I'm still Lutheran. You know what is great about this? I can be Lutheran and you can't decide that I am not Lutheran. Please refrain from attacking my Lutheran beliefs, as a confirmed adulterer.

_________________
Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

IMU - if that's the extent of your religious beliefs, I personally feel that you're not Christian. I'm not trying to tell you how to think of yourself - I just don't see how that's the case.

good dolphin - if you're not going to tell us why you feel the way you do, it's a pointless conversation. At some point, if you're going to say that people are misinterpreting how you believe in God, at some point it would be nice if you actually told us how/why you do and why Catholicism works for you. Again, your religious choices are your own, and no one can take that from you, but it's starting to appear to me as though the primary theme of Catholicism is to be as vague as possible.

_________________