What makes you a legit Christian, in your eyes? Does it require that you believe Noah's Ark was an actual boat that actually contained a male and female of every species on Earth and it survived over a month at sea?

Where is the divide?

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

That's the question I asked earlier in the thread and one that doesn't have a good answer. I just don't know how one can separate themselves from the central book of a religion and still consider themselves part of that religion.

If you're asking about me personally (for Christianity)... at the very least, you must believe that Jesus was God's son and that he died for your sins.

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We just have to define what the "value added" of the religion is. It would be great if they just provided a formal way to follow what you said. Unfortunately, religion is responsible for much of the hate and inequality in our world and in our country.

What?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

This cracks me up, especially since I interpret contracts for a living. We are often deposed and asked what our contract wording meant and how we interpreted the contract we wrote.

I just imagine God being deposed about the Bible and, when asked about the Old Testament, he whispers to his lawyer, and his lawyer says "my client has no position on that matter." Poor God... he just didn't have the right legal counsel on the front end.

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Don't make light of the plight!

I don't think I separate myself from the Bible. As a concise statement like that...it is false. But I take the Bible's stories to be "fables" that are supposed to be the foundation for the religion's morals and beliefs. And the very early Genesis type stuff to be stories attempting to explain things that could not be explained at the time. I believe Moses existed...but I don't believe a burning bush was talking. Things like that.

I'm not disavowing the Bible.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Elbow grease (borrowed from the Italians) and sticktoitevness

Well, where do you draw the line? I bet I agree with at least 1/2 of the Bible... I believe murder is wrong... I'm in general agreement with the Ten Commandments... does that make me a Christian?

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I believe that makes you a jew. L'Chaim!

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

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Elections have consequences.

Again, the respect that most people have for the Abrahamic religions comes as a result of their history and venerability. That's why Tom Cruise and Warren Jeffs are fair game but some Islamic or standard Christian nutcase is not. I don't see how one can expect to step away from the doctrines that give those religions their perceived gravitas and still hold onto the respect.

In a way, I respect the guy who thinks the world is 4000 years old and dinosaurs existed along with people. At least his belief is based on something, as crazy as it might be. When you start creating your own religion, picking and choosing pieces of doctrine, it's just some personal belief no different from any other wacky belief. I've said I don't like the Flying Spaghetti Monster because it exists only to mock the faith of others, but it's really designed to point out silliness like this. I don't want to FSM you, just don't beat me on the head with the respect I'm supposed to have for your crazy ideas.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

The Lutherans kept it simple= Faith in Jesus Christ. Nothing else you could do or say to earn heaven. Solely faith. You are expected to fail and sin, and only through God's grace would you be awarded heaven.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

Are you of the opinion those other religions are not fair game?

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

No, I think they're all fair game.

I'm not gonna come out and ridicule you for your religious beliefs, because it's just not good manners. But if you start calling me a bigot for pointing out some terrible ideas in a religious text and how horrible it is that millions and millions of people hold those beliefs, all bets are off.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

So who is saying that they are not fair game?

Your opinion of that is outdated by at least a generation

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Have you ever seen anyone called a bigot for mocking Scientology or Mormons in this forum? But any time I point out how brutally terrible the ideas of Islam are people will pop right up to, at the very least, intimate that I'm a bigot. I could joke about Tom Cruise's faith in Xenu all day long and those people would laugh along with me.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

I don't know that anyone would come out and say they're not "fair game", but the minute one starts critiquing one of the major religions, there is an emotional response by most that those personally held beliefs should not be questioned and that it is really rude to do so. As evidenced by this thread, people also use whatever definition of "Christian" or "Muslim" they please, but questioning that is somehow also unfair.

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If this were a Utah or Clearwater sports fan message board you would

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

So, why the defense of Islam on a Chicago board?

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There is an emotional response by most when W/L, WAR or any number of beliefs are questioned.

I guess I haven't seen a person write that it is rude to question a belief. The manner in which it is done can be rude.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Joe makes broad generalizations and people like to argue. I'd hardly call them defenses of Islam. There are only a couple of people with enough knowledge of the religion to defend it with any real knowledge.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

But when you voluntarily join a group you are inviting generalizations. Nobody would take issue with someone generalizing about Nazis or even Republicans for that matter. If you want to stand on your own, that's fine. But we seem to have some people walking the line. "I'm a Christian but not like those Christians, they actually believe Christian doctrine!" When you become a member of a group the other members and their actions may rub off on you and your reputation. I can't play in a band with Elmhurst Steve and when he sings a song called "Power To The White Man, Death To The Black" defend myself by saying, "Hey man, I didn't write that one, I only played rhythm guitar on that track." You'd never let me get away with that.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

on the items that are agreed upon as the fundamentals of the group

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Sure, and that comes back around to language and definitions.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

I admit to being one of those people who doesn't have a good grasp of what Islam entails, which is why I generally avoid the conversations. However, as with any religion, I don't understand how the religious "demographic" could be that varied for an entire religion. That's sort of a different issue than what is typically discussed, though.

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I have. I couldn't find the individual threads, but I've had people say that I'm being a jerk by pointing out logical inconsistencies in a religion. It's been awhile, and that may be because I've developed personal relationships with quite a few people and they know I'm a harmless fool, but when I first started posting, I had a lot of pushback about questioning it.

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Well, I think that gets into the depth or even the actual existence of one's belief. And who is really to say how another person feels? We can only judge by their actions. It's sort of like the football "fan" who has no interest in attending any games. I see him as a fan of a TV show. You may disagree.

IMU brought up shakes and bacon earlier. Let's put aside the fact that I'm sure shakes could find somewhere in the Talmud that suggests bacon isn't really pork and lawyer his way around G_d, but there is the concept of the "Jewish atheist", something that doesn't really exist in other religions.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

I know next to nothing about Islam.

I think it is easy to see why there is variation. Our entire industry is based on the interpretation of words that very smart people thought were crystal clear as to meaning at the time of their utterance.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Islam has 1.7B followers. If the main tenants of that religion were murder and violence of non-believers, then we would have 1.7B people or so trying to attack the rest of the world. As it stands, the number of terrorists is a very small subset of that 1.7B.

So you can either believe that the small minority (the terrorists) represent true Islam. Or you can believe that the other 1.6xB peaceful followers represent true Islam.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

Joe and One Post were having a heated but respectful conversation about some baseball thought a while back. One Post added some disrespectful word onto one of his posts that I thought changed the tone of the entire thing but he probably missed out of frustration.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.