Slavery was always bad. They had to have known that at the time and either didn't care or knew how important it was to the South.

It's a little different than improving safety standards in cars.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Yes kinda what I said.

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Elections have consequences.

This is funny coming from you, a guy who constantly defends the status quo. You can say whatever you want, but you could never get me to believe that if you happened to be born in a different time and place and you were Rick Beauregard IV, the scion of Boilermaker Plantation and a sixth generation planter, that you would think slavery was anything other than "the way it's always been".

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

Don't be dumb.

I just spent a good portion of yesterday defending trans people using a bathroom that most closely represents what they are while you basically said "Well, people may be uncomfortable" so you can save that talk.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Don't get angry. You know what I'm saying is true. If you were in the time and place I described you wouldn't be voting for an abolitionist candidate. Oh, you might support the idea on some abstract level, but you'd say it wasn't practical and that we can't destroy the economy of the agrarian south in one fell swoop.

It's not as simple as you make it seem. There are all kinds of studies about how people just follow along. It's not some indictment of your character.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

I understand. Part of what I mean by judging by today's "standards" is the subjectivity of our scrutiny today. If Andrew Jackson should be taken off the bill because he owned slaves, then so should others, all the way up to Washington. However, this woman wasn't attacking Washington because she would have been laughed out of the discussion.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Are you sure you wouldn't have been yelling that Abe Lincoln was an extremist?

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This guy wants to drastically increase the reach of the Federal Government!

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There is not a single person who has come to power who has not done something that would objectively be judged as bad. It's implied that we think the good exceeded the bad.

Carlton Fisk put lives at danger by driving drunk and destroyed property by passing out in his car in a field. We know that but we believe he deserves his statue among the great White Sox statues.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

I'm not angry. What you said was dumb.

I'm sure you have some specific example you are basing this off of but there are plenty of things that I go against the status quo with.

In regards to slavery, since my opinion is pretty much always "People deserve to be treated the same and the feelings/benefits of others don't get put over their own" I assume I would be against slavery.

I assume this is because I don't support Bernie, and I'm truly sorry that I didn't think he would be a good President and that a lot of his ideas were bad.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

If you want a real answer, no, I would not.

Just like I didn't think that a candidate who supported gay marriage was an extremist, or someone who supports a $15 minimum wage is an extremist.

Now, if you call yourself a Socialist and promise a "political revolution" then I probably will.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

ridiculous to say how you would believe if you were raised by different parents different schools different friends different church 200 years ago.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

You don't think abolishing slavery and fighting a civil war over it was more revolutionary than free college and campaign finance reform?

To be clear, I'm not trying to get into some condescending argument. I genuinely would like to know if you think that. It's an important discussion in light of some of what many call "extremist" in today's context.

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Joe Orr believes claiming ownership of real estate is immoral. Others agree. Entire cultures agree. There is a very logical argument supporting the belief. Alternatively, there is not a great argument that supports the concept of ownership. In fact, you could make a very compelling argument that the ownership of real estate is the single greatest cause of debasement of the human race from its natural state.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

That's a strange question. The Civil War was only in part about slavery, and the conflict between slaves/no slaves was built over decades with a huge amount of people both actively fighting on both sides to either keep or remove it.

While obviously not on the same level, the legalization of gay marriage happened in the same way and was divisive for a long time but the tide slowly turned and eventually it was over and most people accepted it.

It's not like Lincoln woke up one day and said "You know what, let's just change everything!".

Now, imagine instead we had a Socialist party in America that was a major force that had been built up over decades and Bernie was running for President as them. Then he would not be an extremist.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I think drunk driving is a little different than rounding up a group of people and taking their land. Slavery is a little different than hitting your children. Beating your wife is a little different than using a slur. There are some acts where time is just irrelevant when judging right or wrong.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

It's not that simple. There are plenty of things going on right now that are wrong and you and I can blithely ignore them and go about our business or even participate. I'm sure you're not going to argue that what Wall Street does to millions of working class people every day is anything less than true evil, yet you support Hillary Clinton. I'm not judging you for it, but I think future generations will have a clearer view of how evil it all actually was.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

I used Fisk to be provocative of some people.

You can conjure up an equivalency without much effort.

How about unnecessary and illegal wars that kill tens of thousands?

More to your last sentence, the Romans didn't have a moral issue with slavery.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

We will undoubtedly be "wrong" about some things too. We don't get a pass just because "that is how it is". Ironically, JORR seems to think otherwise.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

but that is not really my point.

What has changed in the time between when Jackson was placed on the $20 and today? Jackson's past was well known and yet they still put him on the bill. Again, Washington owned slaves.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

I think it is. If you beat a guy on a deal and take his life savings in some ways that's probably wrong. It you literally beat a guy and take everything he owns in every way that's is wrong. There are differences. While I believe John D Rockefeller was a better man than JP Morgan I think a guy like William Aiken was evil.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

I doubt that most today know his full history & even fewer knew that his original placement on paper currency was actually a joke at his "legacy". (I didn't know the last part myself) However, this discussion of moral relativism runs a bit flat for me here. Jackson in his lifetime was known to be a horrible person who murdered, stole and illegally profited off of those who could not defend themselves, all while wrapping himself in the flag and obscene populism. It really speaks more to the fact that this country still in many ways cannot face a true retelling/acknowledgment of its own history that doesn't allow for the simple warm fuzzy tales of grammar school textbooks (and our collective easily bruised little egos). Hell, the man nearly entered us into a hot war to defend slave interests & massacred thousands of Native Americans as a personal side bonus.

Imo, the man was amoral scum then, he should be viewed as amoral scum now.

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

Dude cleared out the native americans so we can have Disney World. Don't tell me you don't like Disney World.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

people knew and despised him (some)

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

You misspelled Hillary.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

You REALLY don't want me to tell you what I think of Disney.

& Leash, you're an ass

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There are only two examples of infinity: The universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the universe.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George