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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:52 am 
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So, did Cashman have as good of a season as the GM who ends up winning the World Series?

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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:01 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
So, did Cashman have as good of a season as the GM who ends up winning the World Series?


Yes.

Duh.

He made the playoffs.

Everything from here on out doesn't matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:07 pm 
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I’m going to ignore Rick Hahn as ultimately, Kenny is it’s been proven Kenny is still very much involved in baseball operations. Kenny Williams has made the playoffs 2 out of 15 seasons (13%). Billy Beane has made the playoffs 8 out of 18 seasons (44%).

Talent obviously matters the most in a baseball team, but there is usually a good amount of luck involved. The 2005 White Sox had both talent and luck going for them. Yes, Kenny won a world series, but he’s not been a good GM. 2 playoff appearances in 15 seasons is disgraceful…especially given the revenue stream of the organization.

I’d take Billy Beane over Kenny Williams in a heartbeat.

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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:39 pm 
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Billy Beane has never even gotten his team to the "random contest" that is the World Series. In fact, since 2000 the White Sox have more playoff series wins than the A's at 3-1.

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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:46 pm 
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Frank Coztansa wrote:
Billy Beane has never even gotten his team to the "random contest" that is the World Series. In fact, since 2000 the White Sox have more playoff series wins than the A's at 3-1.




So you prefer Hahn over Beane?

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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:47 pm 
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312player wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Billy Beane has never even gotten his team to the "random contest" that is the World Series. In fact, since 2000 the White Sox have more playoff series wins than the A's at 3-1.




So you prefer Hahn over Beane?


I don't think we've gotten to see Hahn do any actual "Rick Hahn GM'ing" yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:54 pm 
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312player wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Billy Beane has never even gotten his team to the "random contest" that is the World Series. In fact, since 2000 the White Sox have more playoff series wins than the A's at 3-1.

So you prefer Hahn over Beane?
Where did I say or infer that in my post?

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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:57 pm 
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it was below a post suggesting a person would take Beane over Hahn. It appeared to be a counterpoint to that post.

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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:59 pm 
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SomeGuy wrote:
312player wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Billy Beane has never even gotten his team to the "random contest" that is the World Series. In fact, since 2000 the White Sox have more playoff series wins than the A's at 3-1.




So you prefer Hahn over Beane?


I don't think we've gotten to see Hahn do any actual "Rick Hahn GM'ing" yet.


Agreed. Or at the very least it's been compromised.

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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:01 am 
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Sounds like he is as good at lawn maintenance as he is at getting to or winning the World Series!

http://deadspin.com/billy-beane-is-one-of-the-biggest-water-wasters-in-cali-1736865366

Spoiler Alert: Not very good.

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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:38 pm 
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Billy Boy takes a beating. Great stuff.


The Kansas City Royals: The anti-Moneyball team


In 2003 Michael Lewis published the book “Moneyball” a look at the 2002 Oakland A’s and how statistical analysis was changing big league baseball.

If teams with limited budgets were going to keep up with the rich kids, they’d need to find undervalued players, players they could afford. When they looked for undervalued players the Oakland A’s emphasized on-base percentage and this quote from the book helps explain why:

“The number of runs a team scored bore little relation to that team’s batting average. It correlated much more exactly with a team’s on-base and slugging percentages. A lot of the offensive tactics that made baseball managers famous — the bunt, the steal, the hit and run — could be proven to have been, in most situations, either pointless or self-defeating.”

The first time I read that line I thought it sounded like a great way to win 90 games during the regular season and lose in the first round of the playoffs; which is pretty much what happened.

According to the team’s website, the Oakland A’s have won 90 or more games in eight of the last 15 years, been to the postseason eight times starting in 2000, but have won exactly one playoff series.

Under General Manager Billy Beane, the Oakland A’s are 15-23 in the postseason ... small wonder Beane has been quoted as saying: "My “s--- doesn’t work in the playoffs.”

What works over 162 games might not work tonight.

The playoffs are played and managed differently. You go from running a marathon to an all-out sprint. You can’t let a game get away and say our strategy didn’t work tonight, but over a long season it will.

You need to win right now.

Whatever kind of game you find yourself in that night — say a pitching duel — you need to win. So if an opposing pitcher is painting the corners and you haven’t worked on small ball strategies — if you haven’t been laying down bunts or stealing bases, if your game plan is walking and then hitting home runs — you’re in trouble.

History shows the Oakland Athletics devised a good strategy for getting to the playoffs, but it has not been a winning strategy for them once they got there.

The Kansas City Royals take a different path

So if walks and slugging percentage are the keys to scoring runs, and scoring runs is the key to winning ballgames, how do you explain the Kansas City Royals?

During the 2015 regular season the Royals ranked 29th in walks and 11th in slugging percentage, but they also struck out less than any other team. After the Royals won the World Series, a champagne-soaked Rusty Kuntz said: “We showed the value of putting the ball in play.”

The hitting philosophy: get the ball in play

Along with a whole lot of other critics, I had negative things to say about the Royals approach at the plate; they rarely took a called strike two and I interpreted that as a fear of hitting in two-strike counts. If you’re not good at it — if you don’t choke up or shorten your swing or look to go the other way — you want to avoid being in that two-strike situation.

But I was wrong. There was a method to their madness.

Before Game 6 of the American League Championship Series, Rusty Kuntz told me that if Toronto Blue Jays starting pitcher David Price was at 108 pitches after six innings, the Royals had screwed up; if Price was at 80, the Royals would be in good shape.

That’s about as counter-intuitive as it gets; unlike the teams trying to get the starting pitcher out of the game early by making him throw a lot of pitches, the Royals proposed to attack Price early in the count — they wanted to avoid two-strike “put-away” or “chase” pitches.

They didn’t want to see those two-strike breaking pitches that lure a hitter into swinging because he has to protect home plate. The Royals wanted to hit the fatter pitches Price would throw to get ahead in the count. After six innings, Price was at 87 pitches. He eventually gave up three earned runs and the Royals won the game 4-3.

If you strike out, nothing more can happen; runners don’t advance, the defense doesn’t make errors — and that brings us to base running.

The base running philosophy: be aggressive

“Anything that increases the offense’s chances of making an out is bad, anything that decreases it is good.”

That’s another quote from Moneyball and explains the Oakland A’s base-running philosophy. In 2014 the A’s ranked 21st in stolen bases; in 2015 it was 18th.

In 2015 the Royals stole 104 bases during the regular season; good for fifth most by a big league team. Their numbers were down from 2014 when they led all of baseball with 153 stolen bases, but those numbers were down because opposing pitchers were throwing out of a slide-step to get the ball to home plate quicker. Pitchers were also throwing fastballs for the same reason.

The slide step takes a few miles an hour off a fastball and can cause the pitch to stay up in the strike zone, so opposition pitchers end up trying to stop the Royals runners from stealing bases by giving the Royals hitters better pitches to hit.

Batting average — the stat that Moneyball distained — was helped by the Royals running game. In 2014 the Royals were fourth in team batting average, the A’s were 21st. In 2015 the Royals were fifth, the A’s were 18th. And when a team bunts, steals or uses the hit-and-run, the opposing defense has to adjust where they stand. The corner infielders have to play in for the bunt, the middle infielders have to pinch second base to guard against the stolen base or hit-and-run. If you do not use those tactics, the other team can stand where they like and play at the pace they like.

And aggressive base running causes errors.

As baseball fans saw in the 2015 World Series, taking the extra base and using speed can cause the other team’s defense to rush — and rushing leads to errors. Just ask Daniel Murphy and Lucas Duda.

The pitching philosophy: get it to the pen with a lead.

“We’ll go as far as our starting pitching takes us” has been said so often it’s a baseball cliché. Here are the Royals starting pitchers’ ERAs in 2015 postseason:

Chris Young: 2.87

Edinson Volquez: 3.77

Johnny Cueto: 5.40

Yordano Ventura: 6.43

(Young was used as both a starter and reliever in the regular and postseason.)

Now here are the Royals relief pitchers and their postseason ERAs:

Wade Davis: 0.00

Luke Hochevar: 0.00

Kelvin Herrera: 0.66

Kris Medlen: 3.00

Ryan Madson: 5.40

Danny Duffy: 6.00

Franklin Morales: 19.29

The Royals did not need their starting pitching to be stellar, they just needed to have the starter give the ball to the bullpen without the game being out of hand. If the Royals were at least close, in most cases the bullpen could hold the opposition down while the offense scrambled to get back in the game.

If the Royals had a lead when the starter left the game, they could hand the ball to their best relievers and it was unlikely that they’d give that lead back.

Even without closer Greg Holland, the Royals had a killer back end of the bullpen; which is why the Kansas City pitching staff is considered to be built back-to-front. The arms at the back end of the pen could make up for less than All-Star-level starting pitching.

In the World Series, the New York Mets had three starting pitchers with a regular season ERA under 3.00 and a fourth with an ERA of 3.24, but had difficulty holding onto leads once the ball was turned over to their bullpen.

The defensive philosophy: be athletic

Moneyball describes how Sandy Alderson, former A’s GM, wanted to think about the game in new ways and commissioned a pamphlet by a man named Eric Walker. Walker concluded fielding was: “at most 5 percent of the game.”

Walker was an aerospace engineer.

In their search for undervalued players, the Royals decided athleticism was a commodity they could afford. They knew that signing legitimate home-run hitters would be expensive and a guy who makes his living hitting a baseball over a fence wants the fence to be as close as possible. So the Royals would have to overpay to get a home-run hitter to come to Kansas City and then they wouldn’t get what they paid for.

Athleticism would show up on defense and on the base paths and anyone who watched the Royals on a regular basis knows that defense is a hell of a lot more than 5 percent of the game.

In 2014 three Royals won Gold Gloves: Salvador Perez, Eric Hosmer and Alex Gordon.

Anyone who pays attention knows Mike Moustakas, Alcides Escobar and Lorenzo Cain should be in the conversation. When six of your eight position players might be the best defenders in the league, it makes a difference.

Defensive metrics are still struggling to record what a good fielder is worth, but when you see a team rob the opposition of hits night after night, you know it’s more than 5 percent.

In conclusion


Dayton Moore and the Royals organization took a beating from some critics for not emulating the Moneyball formula for success. But Dayton Moore and the Royals had a formula of their own; one that has proven to be more successful than the Moneyball approach.

Here’s one more quote from Moneyball:

“There was a truly astonishing discrepancy between Billy Beane and every other general manager in the business. There was no question that Billy was the best in the game.”

GM Dayton Moore has been criticized and GM Billy Beane has been lionized, but only one of them has led his team to two American League titles and a World Series championship.

It ain’t Billy Beane.


http://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-co ... 33337.html


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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:49 pm 
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That's awesome.

I wonder how many people would still say that Beane is better than Dayton Moore?

The A's gave Beane the promotion-demotion though so maybe that has changed.

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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:54 pm 
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beane didn't have the luxury of sucking ass for 15 years straight to get a bunch of top 5 picks.

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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:14 pm 
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If a team like The Royals winning reflects poorly on Beane then I guess the majority of recent World Series won by OPB centric teams should reflect positively on him.


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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:22 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
If a team like The Royals winning reflects poorly on Beane then I guess the majority of recent World Series won by OPB centric teams should reflect positively on him.


At the time Moneyball was written the baseball environment was very different than it is currently. Run scoring is at dead ball levels. Obviously, an out doesn't have the same value in such an environment. The sacrifice, while still ill-advised, simply does not hurt the way it did at the height of the steroid era. The risks in running are mitigated by the dominant pitching. We've discussed before that there are intangible factors in the running game (stealing) that are not reflected in the pure loss/gain numbers that suggest a runner must succeed on approximately 75% of his attempts to realize any gain.

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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:27 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
If a team like The Royals winning reflects poorly on Beane then I guess the majority of recent World Series won by OPB centric teams should reflect positively on him.


At the time Moneyball was written the baseball environment was very different than it is currently. Run scoring is at dead ball levels. Obviously, an out doesn't have the same value in such an environment. The sacrifice, while still ill-advised, simply does not hurt the way it did at the height of the steroid era. The risks in running are mitigated by the dominant pitching. We've discussed before that there are intangible factors in the running game (stealing) that are not reflected in the pure loss/gain numbers that suggest a runner must succeed on approximately 75% of his attempts to realize any gain.

So you agree the article is kinda silly then, right?


I mean unless this guy wrote an article praising Beane in 2013 when the Red Sox won with high obp


People never really understood Moneyball, imo. Its not about one way of winning (obp, k's are not a bad thing) its about finding whatever is undervalued at the time and exploiting it.


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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:31 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
I mean unless this guy wrote an article praising Beane in 2013 when the Red Sox won with high obp
The problem is that Beane never won anything.

The Royals are a small market team that found a way to win the World Series, after almost winning one the year before.

Is Dayton Moore better than Beane?

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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:34 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
I mean unless this guy wrote an article praising Beane in 2013 when the Red Sox won with high obp
The problem is that Beane never won anything.

The Royals are a small market team that found a way to win the World Series, after almost winning one the year before.

Is Dayton Moore better than Beane?

The article is mocking Beane's philosophy and saying the opposite was effective. Only fair that he praises Beane when his style wins.


I dont even agree with labeling him as one style but if you're gonna do that you have to do it in good times and bad.


I dont know enough about Dayton Moore. Id have to research it but I think its hard to compare GM's who are in different situations.

Beane is one of the best.


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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:35 pm 
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That depends. If you own a team do you want to usually contend but not win the World Series or completely suck for 20 years and then win a WS.

not sure what the owner would prefer.

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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:40 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
The article is mocking Beane's philosophy and saying the opposite was effective. Only fair that he praises Beane when his style wins.


I dont even agree with labeling him as one style but if you're gonna do that you have to do it in good times and bad.


I dont know enough about Dayton Moore. Id have to research it but I think its hard to compare GM's who are in different situations.

Beane is one of the best.
I'm not sure that Beane's thoughts are really proven as great because the high spending Red Sox won a title.

If Beane was one of the best why did he fail to even get close to the World Series and the Royals won one and almost won another?

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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:46 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
The article is mocking Beane's philosophy and saying the opposite was effective. Only fair that he praises Beane when his style wins.


I dont even agree with labeling him as one style but if you're gonna do that you have to do it in good times and bad.


I dont know enough about Dayton Moore. Id have to research it but I think its hard to compare GM's who are in different situations.

Beane is one of the best.
I'm not sure that Beane's thoughts are really proven as great because the high spending Red Sox won a title.

Of course it is. They led the league in OBP and Slugging. That's what this hack has deemed Beane's philosophy.

Money doesnt matter for that argument.

Boilermaker Rick wrote:
If Beane was one of the best why did he fail to even get close to the World Series and the Royals won one and almost won another?

I think getting to the playoffs consistently with a low payroll is impressive.

I didnt say Beane was better than Moore. But yes Beane is one the best,imo.


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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:49 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
If a team like The Royals winning reflects poorly on Beane then I guess the majority of recent World Series won by OPB centric teams should reflect positively on him.


At the time Moneyball was written the baseball environment was very different than it is currently. Run scoring is at dead ball levels. Obviously, an out doesn't have the same value in such an environment. The sacrifice, while still ill-advised, simply does not hurt the way it did at the height of the steroid era. The risks in running are mitigated by the dominant pitching. We've discussed before that there are intangible factors in the running game (stealing) that are not reflected in the pure loss/gain numbers that suggest a runner must succeed on approximately 75% of his attempts to realize any gain.

So you agree the article is kinda silly then, right?


I mean unless this guy wrote an article praising Beane in 2013 when the Red Sox won with high obp



As we've recently discussed in other threads I think the small sample of the playoffs just doesn't allow enough time for the score as much as possible/allow as little as possible philosophy to play out. And that's the philosophy so much SABRmetric thought was based on during the stats explosion or whatever you want to call it.

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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:52 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
the score as much as possible/allow as little as possible philosophy


uhhh JORR, love ya love your suit but let's take a step back from SABRshit and realize that's THE #1 PHILOSOPHY IN BASEBALL SINCE THE GODDAMN WAS INVENTED IT.

as a matter of fact, call it a hunch that every sport in existence operates on some form of the "score as much as possible / allow as little as possible" philosophy --- call it a hunch.

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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:56 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Of course it is. They led the league in OBP and Slugging. That's what this hack has deemed Beane's philosophy.

Money doesnt matter for that argument.
Money always matters. If Beane was trying to win the World Series with a philosophy that also requires a huge payroll then that just isn't smart.
rogers park bryan wrote:
I think getting to the playoffs consistently with a low payroll is impressive.
That seems to be the point of the article though. The Royals built a team that won a title, and almost won another, with a moderate payroll.

We have a huge sample size that states that what Beane did was ineffective in the playoffs.

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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:58 pm 
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Royals payroll is in the top half of baseball and was $20M+ more than Oakland.


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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:00 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Money always matters. If Beane was trying to win the World Series with a philosophy that also requires a huge payroll then that just isn't smart.

No, it doesnt. In this article it was about what style of baseball is most effective. Cost was not an issue.


Boilermaker Rick wrote:
That seems to be the point of the article though. The Royals built a team that won a title, and almost won another, with a moderate payroll.

We have a huge sample size that states that what Beane did was ineffective in the playoffs.

The Royals have a large payroll

Beane's style may be better for 162 but that is the first part of winning a title.

He also had some historically great teams he was up against (Yankees and Red Sox)

But we disagree on Beane. That's fine.

My point is this article's premise is flawed, and it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:03 pm 
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We have a huge sample size that states that what Beane did was ineffective in the playoffs.

And they've blown so many series. They have a one or two game lead in five game series almost every year since 2000, and they don't even have a pennant to show for it. After the Sox, the A's are the only other team I follow regularly, so this has been frustrating.


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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:09 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
No, it doesnt. In this article it was about what style of baseball is most effective. Cost was not an issue.
I don't think that is true. The whole concept(and the literal name) of "moneyball" is how to compete with the high payroll teams. The tagline of the book was "The Art of Winning an Unfair Game".

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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:11 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
No, it doesnt. In this article it was about what style of baseball is most effective. Cost was not an issue.
I don't think that is true. The whole concept(and the literal name) of "moneyball" is how to compete with the high payroll teams. The tagline of the book was "The Art of Winning an Unfair Game".

I didnt say the book wasnt about money, I said the article wasnt. Did you read it?

The whole thing is "Hey look this stuff that I believe Billly Beane doesnt value (batting avg, defense) won a championship!"


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 Post subject: Re: Billy Beane!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:12 pm 
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rogers park bryan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
No, it doesnt. In this article it was about what style of baseball is most effective. Cost was not an issue.
I don't think that is true. The whole concept(and the literal name) of "moneyball" is how to compete with the high payroll teams. The tagline of the book was "The Art of Winning an Unfair Game".

I didnt say the book wasnt about money, I said the article wasnt. Did you read it?

The whole thing is "Hey look this stuff that I believe Billly Beane doesnt value (batting avg, defense) won a championship!"
Go look at the very start: "If teams with limited budgets were going to keep up with the rich kids, they’d need to find undervalued players, players they could afford. When they looked for undervalued players the Oakland A’s emphasized on-base percentage and this quote from the book helps explain why:"

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