I don't give a fuck about wins except for when my guy gets his 200th. Atta boy, Burls.

I had my issues with him lusting after the Cardinals while being paid by the Sox but I really like Buehrle. Great guy and good pitcher

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

This is the basic "SABRmetric" line of thought. A certain number doesn't matter until we want to say that it does.

Of course, Buerhle's 200 wins matter. As does his .570 winning percentage. He didn't achieve those things by luck or with extraordinary "run support".

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

Well I am Mr Sabrmetrics.

Though he has had extraordinary run support throughout his career. His RS/GS is 4.9 runs...well above average in the MLB. Way above average even in the AL by itself.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

And where does his 3.81 career ERA fall among the MLB average since 2001?

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Higher average ERA than your standard 200 game winner.

Briefly looking, besides Bartolo Colon, I believe that is the highest career ERA for a ~200 game winner in the last couple decades. Jamie Moyer was over 4.00, but he is closer to 300 wins than 200 and also might still be pitching under a different name.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Ok, IMU. How many starting pitchers have won 200 games since the start of 2001 (his first year as a starter)? What is your "standard" 200 game winner now a days?

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Could see this one coming a mile away.


Buehrle=good to very good pitcher who has benefited from better than average run support throughout his career which has likely has won him more games than a similarly talented pitcher with league average run support.

Pretty easy to get.

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Team Cutler.

Greg Maddux
Tom Glavine
Bartolo Colon
Tim Wakefield
Mike Mussina
Jamie Moyer
CC Sabathia
Tim Hudson
Roy Halladay
John Smoltz
Pedro Martinez
David Wells
Andy Pettite
Roger Clemens
Chuck Finley
Kenny Rogers
Curt Schilling

There may be a few more. I've made my point.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Lots of "standard" guys on there I see.

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Lots of pitchers better than Mark Buehrle, yes. He was pretty good, for a long time.

He DEFINITELY benefited from run support.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

he's just been lucky over 3100 innings.

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Reality is your friend, not your enemy. -- Seacrest

Buehrle had a very good career, congrats to him.

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2018
#ExtendLafleur
10 More Wins

Neutralized stats

16 Yrs 190 Wins 154 Losses .552 pct 3.47 ERA



Real good career

No. First, I'm not sure your numbers are correct. You've posted lots of wrong stuff before. Most recently with Altuve. Second, if Buehrle has actually averaged 4.90 runs of "support" throughout his career, that's just about right down the middle for an AL pitcher over that time span. Finally, it's all claptrap anyway. A team can't actually score a fraction of a run. And if Buerhle got 12 runs of "support" while winning 12-1 in one game, it's gonna raise his number while doing nothing at all to help him win any other game he ever pitched. He can't bank the ten extra runs.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

Which 'wrong stuff'? What about Altuve. I'm not sure you understand averages.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

How can run support be important over that amount of time? I can understand it over 20 or 30 games as anomalies can happen but I don't really understand how it could be a fluke his whole career.

Seems more like it would have to do with the ballparks you play in and the type of team you have and therefore any added run support would be counteracted by the general idea that your ERA would be higher because of it too.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

It doesnt really matter. Even with everything equal he still has 190 wins and gets 200 this year

I understand averages perfectly. It seems you don't understand why the particular average you mention means nothing.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

All averages mean something.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Yeah, they're a number you get when you divide one number by another number.

Please explain the practical implications of overall or average "run support" within the context of a game where winning by a single run yields the same result as winning by twenty-five runs.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

If a pitcher has an ERA of 4.50 over the course of 462 starts, and his teams score an average of 4.90 runs in those games, he is very likely to be a winning pitcher.

A 4.50 ERA is not good.

A pitcher with a 4.50 ERA is not good.

That pitcher could still win 200 games.

Wins are not to be used to determine how good a pitcher is. Wins determine how good a team is, 1-25, on days that pitcher starts.

You hate Nolan Ryan.

He had a career 3.19 ERA and 324 wins.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

i would say that with very few exceptions over an extended period of time, pitchers have the record they deserve to have. You cant be lucky or unlucky for the majority of your starts. A guy like Buehrle with as many starts as he's had in the majors is right where he's supposed to be.

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

What explains run support over a career though? It's not like Buerhle played with powerhouse teams his whole career that were smashing the league.

If his teams are able to score so many runs then wouldn't it also be harder to have a lower ERA?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Thats the opposite side of the coin JORR espouses. He's pitching those games in the same park against a team that has a chance to hit in the same atmosphere his players are hitting in. Is he just lucky his teams were better a lot of time? Why couldn't the opposition take advantage of hitting against him in the same conditions and score just as many runs? Maybe Beurhle himself was just better than the guy he was facing therefore deserved the wins most of the time?

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Proud member of the white guy grievance committee

It aint the six minutes. Its what happens in those six minutes.

That a pitcher's team averages a fraction of a run per game more than his ERA in the games he pitches tells us nothing more than the stated facts.



I do not hate Nolan Ryan. The reason he had poor "run support"- if in fact he did- simply speaks to the fact that his ERA was unremarkable within its proper context.

Considering that it is impossible to score a fraction of a run, for all practical purposes a 4.5 ERA and a 4.9 ERA against is practically the same thing. The amount of runs scored by a pitcher's team on the days he is pitching is insignificant outside the context of the actual games.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8

I love that CSFMB is the last place you can find where the Win is still a relevant statistic.

That isn't an absolute. It depends on the context. In the 1930s a 4.00 ERA was better than average. If you pitched for the 1997 Rockies, a decent team, a 4.50 ERA was excellent.

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Ecclesiastes 5:8