I did a wink about Orton. I'm just messing with you.

Look, he made the Pro Bowl. His number were great last year. His physical talents are off the charts, in all aspects, for a QB. I don't have the questions that you have. I don't know how to change your mind. I won't even try cuz I can't.

Also, I hate when people say we gave up 2 number 1 draft picks. Cutler erases one of those picks cuz, if he were in the draft today, after his 3 year career, he would be the first player taken. So that means the number 18 pick was traded for number 1 pick. Then we gave up next years number 1, hopefully in the late 20s, and 3rd rounder. Orton doesn't mean anything cuz we got Cutler. So the extra late 1st rounder and the 3rd rounder is worth getting Cutler. Get it?

Taking out the 5th rounder because it doesn't really matter, if the Bears kept Orton, they would have 3 picks + Orton. Now they have 0 of those picks + Cutler.

So the Bears turned 4 players into 1 and the 1 is a major upgrade to one position. They could have upgraded 3 positions and kept QB the same.

The upgrade of the QB position has to be more impactful than what those 3 picks would have done for this trade to be a success. That's a lot to look for from Cutler.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Everyone of those picks is a crap shoot. Cutler is a proven commodity.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

I know. But I believe Cutler is a FRANCHISE QB. You don't. That's the difference. It's totally worth it cuz of that alone. I also know Orton won't be a FRANCHISE QB. He might be decent but you won't win because of him. And he'll never win a Super Bowl. Cutler has a chance to win Super Bowls. No guarentee cuz we still need other players but having him is the foundation.

I believe he is a franchise QB too. I just don't see a team with an aging defense, patchwork offensive line, and Rashied Davis as your #2 WR find a great benefit from this.

I think we just went from an average team with an average QB to an average team with an above average to great QB.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I agree. But this trade is something completely different. I don't even thing RBs should be drafted in the first round, much less traded for multiple picks. Proven, young QBs are totally different. Find me a young QB with a significant track record of success (no half-year wonders) and a trade thereof and we'll have something closer.

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Fire Phil Emery

Well, none exists either way. Therefore, the closest analogies are the ones presented.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Bingo. You answered it. None exist. No analogy can be made. QB is the most important position in football. Super Bowl RBs can be gotten. Look at the list. Super Bowl QBs aren't that easy to find. Look at that list.

Also, when you look at Super Bowl RBs, you better look at the offensive line. Those lines have been great.

Beardown wrote: QB is the most important position in football. Super Bowl RBs can be gotten. Look at the list. Super Bowl QBs aren't that easy to find.

I agree QB is the most important, but also think you are underrating the value of great running backs. In this decade, two teams have won championships more because of the running backs than the quarterback: Tampa (Alstott and Dunn, Brad Johnson) and Baltimore (Jamal Lewis and Trent Dilfer). I also think you have to consider where your team plays. In cold weather, non-domed cities, you can't underestimate the importance of having a studbolt "grinder."

Alstott, Dunn, and Lewis were never elite RBs. But even so, the list of super bowl QBs over the past 15 years:

Aikman
Young
Aikman
Favre
Elway
Elway
Warner
Dilfer
Brady
Johnson
Brady
Brady
Roethlisberger
P. Manning
E. Manning
Roethlisberger

Two names stick out like sore thumbs on that list, and they are the two you cited. The list of starting RBs for that period:

E. Smith
Watters
E. Smith
Bennett
Davis
Davis
M. Faulk
J. Lewis
Antowain Smith (!)
Dunn
A. Smith/K. Faulk
Dillon
Parker
Addai
Jacobs
Parker

There's a lot more mediocrity on the second list than the first, and the three best RBs (Emmitt Smith, Terrell Davis, and Marshall Faulk) had hall of fame QBs as well. And even in the examples you gave, the reason the team won the Super Bowl wasn't because of their amazing ground game; it was because they had all-time, historically great defenses.

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Fire Phil Emery

It's assumed that any team that wins a championship possesses has a great defense. The Colts' recent SB win might be the one exception. They allowed more rushing yds. per game than any team since the '61 Vikings, but scored enough points to survive anyway.

Agree that Alsott and Dunn were not elite. But... in tandem... they were a force. And Alstott was a perennial Pro Bowler.... as a fullback... even though he didn't play that position. Since so many are pointing to Cutler's one Pro Bowl appearance as the end-all, be-all barometer... I'm coming back with Alstott.

Most of the teams on the list had good defenses. But only two won because of the defense, and those were the two that happened to not have an elite QB (maybe the Giants two years ago are an exception, we'll see). The Bucs in 2002 and Ravens in 2000 were probably two of the top 10 defenses in modern NFL history.

There are lots of reasons why RBs are cheap. Their output is mostly dependent on the quality of the offensive line in front of them. Their careers are short. The difference in output between the 6th best RB and 22nd best RB in the league (two numbers taken at random) is smaller than that of any other position, including (especially?) QB. When you have a bad RB it's obvious, but above a certain threshold all RBs perform about the same given their circumstances until you get to the very most elite group.

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Fire Phil Emery

Dunn and Alstott might have been a force, but not when they won the SB. Dunn wasn't even on the team. And that great running game? They were 27th in the NFL that year (less than 100 yards per game) and put up a whopping 49 yards rushing in the NFC Championship.

In fact for the naysayers regarding the Cutler trade, realize that the year Tampa won the Super Bowl, Brad Johnson was a Pro Bowl QB.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... m/2002.htm

What does that mean? Are you saying that Eli Manning is a great QB? I know you aren't saying Dilfer or Brad Johnson are hard to get?

There are basically two types of QB on that list. Guaranteed hall of famers and then those who aren't. Eli Manning(probably), Dilfer, Johnson are the only ones on there who won't be hall of famers. Roethlisberger may be but it's a little early to say.

Do I think the Bears got a very good QB? Of course. Do I think Jay Cutler is a future hall of famer? Not with what I have seen yet. He may be but let's not pretend that Jay Cutler is the final piece to the Bears Super Bowl puzzle. He's not.

With all the euphoria over him, he still had 25 touchdowns and 18 interceptions last year. He still may not be the best QB in the NFC North. Aaron Rodgers had better numbers last year unless you only value yards.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I don't see how you cannot be excited as a Bear fan about this trade.

Sure there is a chance it may not work out. But there is also a good chance the 2 first round picks may not amount to much either.

And its not like the Bears mortgaged the farm, they still have 8 picks this year including a second and third round pick. Hell even when the Saints traded their entire draft in '99 to pick Ricky Williams and everyone thought they basically ruined their future, they still made the playoffs the next year.

I find it hilarious that some of the stuff being said, only one Pro Bowl appearance...of course he has been only a starter for two years, thats a pretty good average. And his rating has been over 86 all three years in his career, how many times has a Bear QB posted a rating over 86 in a season in the past 20 years?

And whether or not he is a hall of famer? How many Hall of Fame QBs are available to trade? Is Brady available, Manning? How many draft choices would it take to pry away a past his prime McNabb (who may or may not be a HOF)?

Is Cutler better than Aaron Rodgers? I don't know for sure but at least we can have this conversation, I don't think we can have the same conversation Orton vs. Rodgers.

The QB is the most important position on the field and how many playoff games have the Bears had an advantage at the QB position. Avellini vs Staubach, Fuller vs. Montana, Walsh vs. Young, Miller vs. McNabb, Grossman vs Manning?

All the years when Tampa had a great defense, the only year they won a SB was with a Pro Bowl QB, Brad Johnson.

The Bears may not go to a Super Bowl with Cutler, but I would rather try to win with a young very promising QB than without one.

[quote="Gloopan KuratzThe question still stands..... Do you honestly believe that Cutler can throw for even 3500 yards with the crappy receivers that they have?[/quote]

C'mon....... while we're young.......

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C'mon....... while we're young.......[/quote]

Yes.

Orton threw for 2972 yards in 15 starts. That comes out to about 3170 yards in 16 starts.

3500-3172=328. 328/16 = 20.5

So if Cutler starts 16 games and averages only 20 yards more per game, there is your 3500. If Cutler can hit Hester on those deep passes Orton missed on, you are almost there.

Yes.

Orton threw for 2972 yards in 15 starts. That comes out to about 3170 yards in 16 starts.

3500-3172=328. 328/16 = 20.5

So if Cutler starts 16 games and averages only 20 yards more per game, there is your 3500. If Cutler can hit Hester on those deep passes Orton missed on, you are almost there.[/quote]


This gives the Bears a chance to be two dimentioable rather then One. If nothing else gives them more of a chance which factors into fottball also.

I think you're getting "dementiable", STU.

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Let me once again remind Frank that he can't get away from this anytime he opens up his sewer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kgdikuVQOU

Sorry Frank that my typing skills aren't up to your level im not as talented with my hands

Mac,

I like you, but I had to crap you for this one. Please let me know in advance if you are actually going to shave Murph's mustache.

Thanks.

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