Man, some of those Sox teams were weak hitting. I think Peters batted clean up on occasion.

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The theory is that by having a position player bat ninth, your #3 hitter (your best hitter) will have three position players bat ahead of him every time through the order except the 1st inning. This would give him the possibility of more base runners on and possibility of knocking in more runs.


Maddon did this when Rizzo batted 3rd. The last few weeks, he has batted Rizzo 4th and Bryant third. Don't know if that has anything to do with it.

I think so.

He was the designated knuckleball catcher. He had a big glove.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
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It also increases the at-bats of the pitcher. At least theoretically. I think we have to either be SABRmetric or not. It's probably not a good idea to mix up a pot of voodoo and manage a game based on that. All the best and latest information we have suggests the batters should be ordered from best OPS to worst. Very simple. If a guy actually did that, he'd take more heat than batting a pitcher eighth though.

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I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Yes, J.C. Martin did do some color for the White Sox.
It may have been back when they were broadcast on the "On TV" Network.
I remember him as being incredibly terrible.

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I think he had given an explanation once that he did it to allow the nine hitter to see better pitches, especially when it's a young, developing player like Russell.

I'm sure there's logical flaws in there as well as some rationale that has merit.

I don't really care either way. Seems to me like in some situations it will work and in some situations it will bite you.

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Wilbur Wood, Eddie Fisher and Hoyt Wilhelm.
It always seemed like the Sox had one or two knuckleballers on their roster.

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Host of the weekly "We Fish ASA" podcast
Weekly columnist for the Northwest Herald
Bi-monthly columnist for Illinois Outdoor News magazine
Former host of The Outdoors Experience on WIND and The Great Outdoors on CLTV
http://www.wefishasa.com

The rest of the arguments aside, why would you believe this? Show me an organization that will not stray from sabremetrics ever, and I'll show you a shitty organization. Show me an organization that will never use sabremetrics, and I'll also show you a shitty organization.

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Fergie Jenkins, Bob Gibson, Livan Hernandez, Ken Brett, Fernando Valenzuela

Baumgartner and Glavin too. Maddux to a lesser degree.

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I think it was before that. When they were on Channel 32.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
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well i watched a lot of baseball this year, and i know for certain i said "fuck" a lot more watching the pitcher come up in terrible situations in the first and second innings of games than i said "wow, great thinking" in the rare situations where the 9th, 1st and 2nd hitters all lined up perfectly for whomever was batting 3rd. i admit there were a couple times i know it worked out, but there is no WAY it outweighed the "Oh FUCK" moments of watching a pitcher end the inning with multiple men on or watching the #7 hitter get walked to get to the pitcher.

Because it's idiotic to think you can outsmart the numbers. It's like a guy who has a system for betting horses that produces a 5% return. The system selects horse X and that's the bet. But the guy looks at the program and says to himself, "that fucker can't win", so he doesn't make the bet. The thing wins and pays $84.00. Now his entire system, which is running on a skinny margin, is fucked.

If you have the philosophy that the object of the game is to score as many runs as possible (I don't), then there's the best way to do that and that's by getting the best hitters the most at-bats. It's pretty much accepted that the "when" can't be controlled and you should just score as much as possible and hope Pythagoras is right- and he's pretty close most of the time.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Terrible analogy, horseracing is fixed. I trust Maddon to make the right call..whether it's his gut or some computer program.

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It is? Who is "fixing" a race and how? We know baseball has been fixed 1918 Cubs and 1919 Sox at least, plus Rose losing games on purpose.

Anyway, it's a philosophical discussion that goes byond Joe Maddon's "gut". If youre a guy who believes in "gut feelings" I don't ever want to see you bash someone over the head with a statistic. Either the numbers count or they don't. They just can't count when we want them to.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

That's speaking within the context of a single game. Obviously, the goal is to win as many games as possible. But there are certainly long-term goals as well, such as player development, as long as it doesn't sacrifice winning (and in some years, even if it does ). Regardless of whether it actually works, I have no problem with batting Russell ninth if he thinks it will make him see better pitches/boost his confidence/whatever other reasons he might have.

Please be aware that I'm not saying it actually does accomplish those things. I'm just saying that it would be ludicrous - and probably even impossible - to always make decisions based on metrics. And I think batting the pitcher 8th is really of little consequence in the larger scheme, anyway. I'm actually surprised you feel differently.

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So why stop in the playoffs?

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I'm honestly not sure. I question it myself.

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I dont see how you can say that.

So if one goes on a gut feeling, ever in their life, they are forbidden from ever using or imploring someone to use data forever ?


I know a lot of traders that go by the book (charting) about 90% of the time but then sometime have great trades on a hunch.

What would you say to them?

The truth is a gut feeling is actually data in a different form. Its based off past experiences.

I don't know that it's for the playoffs in general, or just games Lester pitches and Ross catches. With Ross and Lester in the lineup, you have 2 near automatic outs. Any rally stops at the 7th position in the lineup, if Ross bats 7th with Lester 8th and Russell 9th. By batting Lester 9th and Ross 8th, a rally extends to at least the 8th position, where it likely dies with Ross up. I will not be surprised if Maddon reverts back to batting the pitcher 8th when Hendricks and Arrieta pitch, with Montero back in the lineup.

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then why didn't he bat arrieta 8th in pittsburgh?

I would imagine the only time he would do it in the playoffs is when Hendricks pitches because he may think he needs more offense. With Lester and Arrietta, he doesn't feel he needs a gimmick to get more runs. He just needs a couple and the pitchers will win it for him.

Lets see how it plays out. Arrieta is a good hitting pitcher too. Lets see what he does tomorrow night. Not saying it's definitely going to happen, but I think it might. Joe likes to keep em guessing too.

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With Arrieta, I agree with you. Lester.....not as much.

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jake arrieta is a career .154 hitter. it makes no more sense to bat him 8th than it does lester or hendrix or hammel or any of these guys except maybe travis wood.

I'd say that theyre lucky. I dont think you can philosphically believe in both "gut feelings" and hard numbers. One undermines the other.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Again, it has nothing to do with the 7, 8, 9 hitters, it has to do with who is batting 3rd and thinking you will score more runs by having more men on base for your 3 hitter.

Schwarber is now in Right and other dude in left.

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i understand the theory and disagree with it. if i get the opportunity to score in the 1st or 2nd innings i want a hitter coming up in that spot to drive them in, not sacrifice an opportunity to score so that you might possibly have an opportunity to score the next inning.

He only began hitting in the National league well into the 2013 season and if you look at his hitting from the All Star game forward this season, Ill bet it's markedly better. 2 Home Runs included.

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anybody know their record when they bat the pitcher 8th? specifically arietta?