And that right there is pretty much the game of baseball, who wins and who loses.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Now that I can agree with.

I don't think there is a definite answer either way. That is why it amuses me to see some being so cut and dry and saying this is the only answer "period".

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

It would not change my opinion of you at all.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

His goal should be to strike out all three and remove any chance they reach base. Failing that, the goal should be to not give up any hard hit balls.


Your loaded question trying to devalued gamescore makes no sense.



If people think that Buehrles pitch that Wise caught over the fence was a better pitch than Woods slow roller to third for a hit, I can't help them. That's just crazy.

Did this thread just lose some posts?

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Drop 3rd strike, still a chance for guys to reach base.



If people think that the game in which Kerry Wood gave up a hit and hit batter is better than a game in which a pitcher retired all 27 batters he faced, I can't help them. That's just crazy.

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That seems to be an answer for #1.
The question makes perfect sense. "The Greatest Game Ever Pitched" is because Kerry Wood averaged a little over 2 strikeouts an inning.
The BABIP is about .300 for either.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Its absolutely that way and the explanation is ultra simple

One has a major correlation with future performance, one does not.

These stats are gauged towards future performance, not judging the past.

Right and a guy could hit a homerun and collapse and die rounding first. That would also be an out.


Just say you think probability is a bunch of garbage you do.t believe in.

But its not. It's only garbage when it proves you wrong;

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100% false and a great example of not looking deep enough into the numbers. Balls in play are classified. Hard hit balls have a way higher BAPIP.


You guys don't like the deep Sabr stats. I do.

Its ok, either way

No, its never garbage in my opinion. You clearly dont understand or choose to ignore probability.


You're not doing your side any favors by hanging your hat on drop third strike possibility devaluing strikeouts




Your pretty much just trolling now in favor of the sox. Im comfortable with your ignorance though and I shant respond to such non sense.

Nevermind, I forgot this argument has now moved into it's 8th thread.

This argument is just becoming silly. No one is going to cede any ground. Frank would argue that Ivan Calderon had a better death than Kevin Foster.

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I'mma let you finish....but Jeremi Gonzalez had the best death of all time.....OF ALL TIME!!!!

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I challenge anybody to name any other player who flew an airplane into a high rise building in Manhattan.

It is hard to top that.

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1923-1927-1928-1932-1936-1937-1938-1939
1941-1943-1947-1949-1950-1951-1952-1953
1956-1958-1961-1962-1977-1978-1996-1998
1999-2000-2009
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XXI - XXV - XLII - XLVI

You clearly don't understand or are choosing to ignore my point.

You said strikeouts "remove any chance that they (the batters) reach base"
I said that there is drop 3rd strike and there is still a chance they reach base.

My point was that a guy can still reach base if he strikes out. I even posted a picture of a very famous example of this. I never attempted to devalue a strikeout or any other out. I just said that guys can still reach base, and you couldn't understand that, said that I'm trolling and that you will not repsond to such nonsense.

What is nonsense is trying to play off the drop 3rd strike example by comparing it to a guy who drops dead during a HR trot.

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That's ridiculous. It's like saying your goal should be trading a contract for a $7 billion dollar profit today. Goals should never be impossible.

A pitcher's goal is to allow less runs than the pitcher(s) he is facing in a given game. Very simple.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

This discussion is about pitching. Not home runs or sacrifice flies.

If you don't think it is harder to get 3 outs by striking out all three batters vs. getting them to ground out, fly out, or even strike out...you never pitched before.

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@audioidkid

That's claptrap, Bryan. Every time Dunn strikes out he takes away the approximately 30% chance that he would have gotten a hit had he put the ball in play. I understand the value of Dunn. He walks far more than most and an inordinate amount of his hits go over the fence. But that doesn't change the fact that a batted ball is preferable to a strikeout for a hitter.

The same thing works in reverse. It's preferable for Wood to strike a batter out than it is for Buehrle to allow a ground ball. At least in a vacuum. Over the course of a game there are other considerations, like pitch counts, etc.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

If that's the case, isn't it better to take the easier route?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

I'm glad you agree that its more difficult.

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@audioidkid

What does striking out 3 batters have to do with anything? Of course striking out 3 batters is more difficult. If someone did that, they'd be better than someone who got 3 normal outs.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I disagree with your assessment, sir

My goal at work is to make 0 errors. Its hard but I've had some perfect years in that respect. Its daunting and rare but it is still the goal

Frank, look up what pct of strikeouts reach base.


Its like people arguing batter strikeout are bad because "If you put the ball in play; anything can happen."

The % is so minimal it doesn't make a difference

Once again you are missing my point. I don't care how small the % is, its still possible. You said, and I quote, remove all chance they reach base. That is false.


You seem to think that I am the one posting nonsense, and you compared a drop 3rd strike to a guy dropping dead after hitting a home run.
laugh out loud!

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I just answered this to Frank. The numbers don't support it. The number of times an error is made is not enough to trade power fir cintact

The achievement of striking out 20+ is a more difficult task....in my world and statistically.
The stats prove that it is a rarer occurrence than a no hitter or perfect game.
Why is this so hard to understand?

Thankfully, only 12 days until NFL camp and we can put all this baseball nonsense to bed until late October.

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@audioidkid

and therein lies the ignorance
/




[quote="Frank"]You said, and I quote, remove all chance they reach base. That is false [\quote]
So your point is when I said all, I should have said 99.9%?

Noted. Solid contrubution there

Roger, guys reach base on drop 3rd strike. It happens. You know it and I know it. A pitcher can strike out 27 guys on 81 pitches and he still needs help keeping those guys off the bases. Keep in mind here you are the one comparing a drop 3rd strike to a guy dropping dead in the middle of a HR trot. Solid contribution there.


I'm sorry you are twisted enough to believe that a guy who gave up a hit and had a hit batsman had a better game than a pitcher who went out there and retired all 27 batters who came to the plate that day.

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Assuming none of us played in college, who here in this discussion pitched varsity in high school?

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@audioidkid