I'm not saying that. You are saying that the 2007 team was an all star team.
In 2007, the Diamondbacks, Mets, and Dodgers all had more all stars just for the National League.

It's very subjective to say whether or not last year's team had more "talent". It however, is not subjective at all to say that, compared to 2003, the 2007 team was an all star team. That can be answered by number of all stars. It is tied if you don't count Sammy Sosa who would easily have been an all-star if healthy.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Only 3 out of 19 ESPN "experts" predicted it. I dont think the expectations were as lofty as you thought.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/preview08 ... xpertpicks

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

That's the year? The only year? There weren't any injuries last year?
Nobody gets to use injuries as an excuse for losing... even though we all know it's the true reason. That's just how managers get judged, by managing who IS on the field .... not who isn't.

I dont see how they could do that, unless you were reading an article by just one writer. The Mets are clearly the overwhelming favorite in their staff's eyes.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Im confused by the point of this thread coming from a guy with "Lou is gonna lead us to a WS title" or something along those lines in his sig before.

Is it to show that Dusty is a better manager than we remember, that Lou is a worse manager than we think, or both?

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Well, this topic seems to be going in a few different directions. Here are my questions as someone who isn't even a Cubs fan.

Dusty Baker does not deserve to be ridiculed because he took a team 5 outs from the World Series in his first season and then had three more seasons of average to below average results?
Lou Pinella deserves to be ridiculed because he took a team to the playoffs in his first season but should have done more with his "abundance" of talent and is currently predicted(and on pace) for another successful season?

Are Cubs fans supposed to judge every future manager on the basis that if you do not get within 5 outs of the World Series in your first year that you are worse than Dusty Baker, who at this point is considered to have failed in Chicago?

That seems like quite a precedent that was set.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

If I remember correctly Chandler and Dusty's career arcs were going complete opposite directions at the time of their departure.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Well yeah I wasnt on the board for the Chandler trade, and I was in favor of bringing Wallace here, but it was obvious Chandler was progressing and I thought it was equally obvious that he would improve greatly playing with the best PG in the NBA, who at the time wasnt but was still a top tier PG. I dont think we are viewing Chandler as the same player today if he had stayed with the Bulls.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Your backing of Wallace is canceled out by your backing of Rex Grossman.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Let's hope so. One of the QB's needs to step up.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

As does the offense and the defense.....

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SideshowBob311: "Sadly enough, I think we're the "intelligent" portion of the sports radio fanbase".
"I make fun of whoever sucks, including me"- Harry 11/30/07

if dusty would have come out, then he would have done his job in the eyes of most people (obviously not all). then you could say...what the hell happened to the players.

you can still say that, but dusty couldn't just sit there and watch it hapen.

i don't think lou had a superior team. he had a suspect pitching rotation, and a lead off hitter who swung at every pitch.

dusty had a great lead off hitter with kenny lofton, a very solid pinch hitter in randal simon, and at the time, wood and prior were a VERY solid 1 - 2 punch, and zambrano was a young gun.

who cares about all star team anyway? that doesn't always win a world series.

dusty's team in '03 should have won game 6, and they could have beaten the yankees.

in '04 he let it all go, and if lou does the same thing, lou will get the same criticism--and maybe more, because like you said, "he has more talent".

but he STILL doesn't have a true ace pitcher OR a true lead off hitter (that he'll use). dusty did.

I don't know... Prior, Wood, and Z were probably the best 1-2-3 punch in the majors. The lineup was shaky but was much improved when Lofton and Ram came over at the deadline. And Sosa was still Sosa.

I will say that I don't buy the argument that Dusty ruined Prior and Wood. Or at least not beyond the extent that sometimes that's the risk you take when you're going for the World Series.

Also it must be conceded that despite the strong roster in 2004, the three main studs (Wood, Prior, and Sosa) greatly underachieved.



Holy cow! I don't think anyone can debate those names. That's ugly. Though, you could go through most team's rosters and come up with similar names over a four year period. If Lou does four years here, he could point to the Sean Gallager's and Rocky Cherry's of the world too.



But Lou's got him too!

"They" wouldn't have said that, you're way out on a limb there. Maybe a columnist like Jay that just stirs the pot would write that but everybody still liked Dusty at that point. If we're just making things up that people would have said, I claim "they" would have said Dusty made the best decision in the history of the Cubs franchise by coming out there and talking to Prior because right after that he got out of the inning without any more damage being done and got a complete game win and the Cubs went to the World Series
Everybody on the messageboard could have done what Dusty did right there, sit on their ass, do nothing, and hope for the best. 2 innings away from the World Series isn't the time to hope for the best. That's when good managers earn their money and bad ones lose series that they had in their hands [quote="Nas"]

That may be so, but no one in their right mind would take 2007 Zambrano, Lilly, and Marquis (and Hill) over 2003 Wood, Prior, and Z (and Clement).

Nas, thanks for playing--but everything about the 2003 Cubs is an "if", and I don't blame Dusty for the collapse personally--but it is a manager's job to come out and try to calm things down with the players when EVERYONE KNEW something was wrong. Moises Alou was freaking out, and Prior was obviously rattled. Prior didn't need to be taken out of the game at that point, he needed a guy to come out there and say, "We got this". That's all.

That's not like...the ONLY moment that Dusty failed, or the team failed. They failed together. But you keep on pressing people that they should not be as hard on Dusty, and you have no argument that anyone is going to listen to to substantiate it.

Lou has to do better than Dusty, or else you can't possibly say Lou was a better manager than Dusty--however, Lou's done some things already that I never saw Dusty do--like play young players, and bench guys when they should be benched.

Now, the Soriano thing? I have no clue. I still think it's upper management telling Lou to keep leading him off when everyone in their right mind, anyone with a baseball IQ of 1, knows that he's not a lead off hitter.

I could care less what Dusty does from now on, I wish he went to another division so it wouldn't make it so easy to root against him, but I'm not a Dusty hater.

I'm also not a Dusty defender. He deserves criticism. So does Lou.

So do the Cubs.

im trying to remember here: when the whole bartman thing happened, there was one on and one out, right? things hadnt gotten out of hand at that point. im not following how at that point prior needed settling down. alou is the one who needed settling down. granted, prior had issues after that, but i dont see how dusty would have felt it neccesary to go settle down his best pitcher in that situation. there was still one guy on and one out and nobody in, and as well as prior had done to that point, things still looked ok. after the wild pitch and walk to castillo, that is when i would agree that dusty may have wanted to have a few words. hindsight is always 20/20 though.

Mofo, Prior was screaming his head off on the mound and Alou was freaking out in Left.
It was clear enough that he needed to be calmed down becuase my wife even said, "Wow, he's gonna lose it out there, look at him"

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

2003
Mark Prior, 18-6, 2.43 ERA
Kerry Wood, 14-11, 3.20 ERA
Carlos Zambrano, 13-11, 3.11 ERA
Matt Clement, 14-12, 4.11 ERA

2007
Carlos Zambrano, 18-13, 3.95 ERA
Ted Lilly, 15-8, 3.83 ERA
Jason Marquis, 12-9, 4.60 ERA
Rich Hill, 11-8, 3.92 ERA

Which pitching staff would you rather have?

This comment from the Reds message board could have come from the Cubs message board 4 years ago...



Here's another...

My favorite so far...

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

i know, and i agreed that after he walked castillo, it was clear that some words were definitely in order, im just saying i didnt think it that bad a call to let him finish that at-bat and see if he could finish off castillo. even after he walked castillo, the world hadnt yet ended, and certainly that was a time to settle him down, talk to him, see what was going on in there.

no argument from me, they stuck with prior too long. i just disagree that dusty needed to go out at that moment, in the middle of a long AB.

Regardless of what happened in game 6, they crapped down thier pantleg and pissed away a lead in game 7.

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THAT is the game i fault Dusty for the most. Dave Veres should NEVER pitch in game 7 of ANY series ever.

I blame the players more than anything for 2003. I'm not saying Dusty did everything right, but the Cub had several chances to put the Marlins to bed in that series and the failed to execute on the field each and every time.

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The Cubs haven't won 90+ games in years.

Cub fans should be blaming Dusty for missing the playoffs in 2004 rather than leaving early in 2003. A complete and total meltdown worrying about what was said in the broadcast booth, and other things off the field is what was the problem then. That is something the manager could have and should have stopped.

I think its hilarious that people are still getting all up in arms over Dusty Baker. Who gives a shit? I certainly wouldn't care if Jerry Manuel was managing again. This Cub team has the potential to go further than any of Baker's teams could have dreamed of. Worry about that and forget about what could have been in 2003.

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Well, if management believed after a couple of years that Dusty was a bad hire and a bad fit and they didn't want to keep him then it shouldn't be a surprise that they decided not to give him the property support. That's why the GM and upper level people took a beating too.

We're not, actually. This is in response to the media feeding frenzy that has been the return of the Trusty One. I am really really happy he's managing in the division, becuase that takes a good team out of the picture as far as I'm concerned.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

I didn't specify. Media, message board posters, fans....people are still getting worked up about this foolishness.

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You seem to be getting your rocks off about it and the subsequent discussion. I find it terribly amusing. Nothing can be done about it, so why discuss it? So people can find something else to wring their hands about (or mock others about)?

Asinine.

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Stupidity irritates the crap outta me... and yes, I irritate myself far too often.

You should direct this comment to your Cub fan bretherin and/or the media. Or, the people who have more than just 3 or 4 posts on this matter.

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