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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:22 pm 
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Baseball Notes
Spotlight may very well fall on Lucchino
By Nick Cafardo
October 9, 2011

Until Theo Epstein is officially announced as the new president/general manager of the Chicago Cubs , we can’t be sure the Red Sox have to hunt for new management.

But if he is taking the Cubs job, then the spotlight again will be directed at Sox president/CEO Larry Lucchino, whose job would be to put the team back among the elite following two third-place finishes, which is unacceptable for a big-market franchise with a $160 million plus payroll.

Lucchino’s baseball-decision powers have been reduced for a few years, but if Epstein departed, one would think they’d be restored.

Even if Lucchino and ownership hired Ben Cherington as general manager, it would take time before Cherington could make the same demands Epstein did and have complete control over the operations.

Lucchino, in this correspondent’s opinion, served a vital role as devil’s advocate. He was the skeptical, pain-in-the-butt character in deciding whether big-ticket items served the best interests of the franchise. That’s what a good CEO does.

But after Epstein returned from his hiatus in 2005, Lucchino was essentially stripped of that role, still signing off on things, but without the fine-tooth comb. He was told to keep his nose out of the baseball operations department, and from what we understand, he did.

If Epstein is gone, the current problems fall back on Lucchino, who would have a chance to bring back those important checks and balances.

For an organization to be right, it has to start at the top. The top is Lucchino. More than ever.

What he needs to do is establish a balance between the new-wave statistical analysis system that this team depends on so much and traditional baseball values. Epstein undoubtedly felt he had that balance, but the reality is maybe he didn’t.

Right now, there seem to be few traditional baseball people around him. The Sox seem slanted toward new-wave, unlike the Phillies, who tilt more on the side of traditional baseball ways.

Lucchino is more of a traditional baseball man himself, and if he assumed control, he would have to shift the organization more that way.

Lucchino would need to revamp the scouting department, which hasn’t done a very good job with pitchers in particular. He’d have to get the Sox back to being the development machine that Epstein so aspired to and had for a while.

The “accountability’’ issue really has to start with ownership and Lucchino, who is a very skilled manager of people.

Cherington would be the right choice for GM because he has been in the Sox system for many years, even before Epstein showed up. He has seen the good, the bad, and the ugly and has matured into an expert in all baseball departments.

You always want to see a person who has paid his dues - and Cherington has - get the job he’s been aspiring to.

Lucchino has worn many hats in his many years in the game and has accomplished so much, including the building of Camden Yards in Baltimore and Petco Park in San Diego.

He helped turn the Sox into a money-making machine and has been a loyal soldier to his owners, John Henry and Tom Werner. He has protected them, as any excellent leader of an organization should do.

Which is why having Lucchino more involved in baseball is a good thing. He understands his limitations in that area, which is why he employs a GM to handle player acquisition.

“He challenges you,’’ said one of his former employees. “He makes you give him a very thorough explanation as to why something is being done. You’d better have a good reason to be doing something, especially something big because he’ll play devil’s advocate on every little thing.’’

Is that what has been missing the past couple of years - that very basic but important element in player acquisition moves?

If it was, it could return if Epstein leaves and the front office is realigned.

Lucchino would be wise in bringing in baseball people in their 50s, 60s, and even 70s. Experience and wisdom are good things. The Ivy League GMs don’t have all of the answers. A good blending of both age groups makes for a more thorough thinking process.

Lucchino, who is a possible candidate to be commissioner when Bud Selig retires, is smart enough to know who those people are. No need for us to mention them.

He has had terrific people around him for many years .

The Red Sox need to evaluate free agents better. Even Epstein acknowledged that.

They need to be able to measure heart and desire, and project how players will fit in Boston, and not just from a statistical point of view. This is not to say the “traditional’’ guys won’t make their share of mistakes. They have and they will, but the human element has to be a greater part of what’s going on.

As one former Red Sox player said recently, “They need to get back to fundamentals in every area of their organization. On the field, you’ve got to take more infield practice. Outfielders have to work on their throwing and situations. Pitchers have to work on their defensive drills.’’

So there has to be that voice, that one person who says it, and everyone else has to follow suit: “This is the way we’re going to do things. We can incorporate all of the great new ideas into it, but at the core, we’re going to be a baseball team.’’

That will be Lucchino’s challenge, and possibly his legacy.







So Epstein is the savior? Not.

Go get Freidman FanBoy!


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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:24 pm 
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I want Theo and Cherington to go to the North Side.

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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:34 pm 
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Urlacher's missing neck wrote:
I want Theo and Cherington to go to the North Side.

Epstein is highly overrated but he's got FanBoy enthralled. Whatever. I guess he thinks he's some whiz kid or something. Give me a break!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I want someone who can evaluate talent and Epstein has proven he cannot do that. Way to much bad money spent. He must have been consulting with Hendry on some of those contracts.

Not good. At all.


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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:46 pm 
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Michael Hunt of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel points out that the somewhat low payrolls of the remaining playoff teams are examples of the importance of drafting, scouting, and player development. The Tigers have the largest payroll (10th), while the Cardinals (11th), Rangers (13th), and Brewers (17th) round out the pack. It's also worth noting that the Diamondbacks rank 25th and the Rays were 29th.


See that FanBoy? Fuck these big money GM's. Get someone who can develop talent!


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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:48 pm 
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cpguy wrote:
Michael Hunt of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel points out that the somewhat low payrolls of the remaining playoff teams are examples of the importance of drafting, scouting, and player development. The Tigers have the largest payroll (10th), while the Cardinals (11th), Rangers (13th), and Brewers (17th) round out the pack. It's also worth noting that the Diamondbacks rank 25th and the Rays were 29th.


See that FanBoy? Fuck these big money GM's. Get someone who can develop talent!


Come on dude. Everything Ricketts has said from day one is developing talent. You're all over the place.

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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:55 pm 
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Drop In wrote:
cpguy wrote:
Michael Hunt of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel points out that the somewhat low payrolls of the remaining playoff teams are examples of the importance of drafting, scouting, and player development. The Tigers have the largest payroll (10th), while the Cardinals (11th), Rangers (13th), and Brewers (17th) round out the pack. It's also worth noting that the Diamondbacks rank 25th and the Rays were 29th.


See that FanBoy? Fuck these big money GM's. Get someone who can develop talent!


Come on dude. Everything Ricketts has said from day one is developing talent. You're all over the place.

Talk is cheap. All owners say that. The proof is getting someone who can do that. I just don't see Epstein as that guy. Read the Cardafo article. Boston realizes the same thing. They realize that "whiz kid" stuff is just plain BS .


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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:56 pm 
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cpguy wrote:
Drop In wrote:
cpguy wrote:
Michael Hunt of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel points out that the somewhat low payrolls of the remaining playoff teams are examples of the importance of drafting, scouting, and player development. The Tigers have the largest payroll (10th), while the Cardinals (11th), Rangers (13th), and Brewers (17th) round out the pack. It's also worth noting that the Diamondbacks rank 25th and the Rays were 29th.


See that FanBoy? Fuck these big money GM's. Get someone who can develop talent!


Come on dude. Everything Ricketts has said from day one is developing talent. You're all over the place.

Talk is cheap. All owners say that. The proof is getting someone who can do that. I just don't see Epstein as that guy. Read the Cardafo article. Boston realizes the same thing. They realize that "whiz kid" stuff is just plain BS .


I don't care what the Cubs realize about Theo, if it's after 2 championships.


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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:57 pm 
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cpguy wrote:
Michael Hunt of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel points out that the somewhat low payrolls of the remaining playoff teams are examples of the importance of drafting, scouting, and player development. The Tigers have the largest payroll (10th), while the Cardinals (11th), Rangers (13th), and Brewers (17th) round out the pack. It's also worth noting that the Diamondbacks rank 25th and the Rays were 29th.


See that FanBoy? Fuck these big money GM's. Get someone who can develop talent!

:lol: :lol: His parents really named him that?

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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:03 pm 
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cpguy wrote:
Talk is cheap. All owners say that. The proof is getting someone who can do that. I just don't see Epstein as that guy.


You are such an idiot. You bitch no matter what. Epstein put together a team that won 2 championships and they did it with a lot of homegrown talent.

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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:11 pm 
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This is the problem with today's media. The story has now come full circle, and the only person suggesting Theo has even been in Chicago is some D-Bag at a Starbucks. I'm 99.9% sure the Tribune can suck on my assholes. Theo Epstein has done more in baseball by age 37 than most execs will do in their life. The fact we are questioning this is insane.

I've also had enough of the fanboy stuff. Ricketts has made some bad PR decisions, and actual decisions in his time here. No question. However, he didn't get dumb the minute he officially purchased the team. His dad is probably a better businessman. That doesn't mean Tom Ricketts is a bad one. They started the process of purchasing the team just prior to the worst economy since the Great Depression. They paid too much. Probably 150 million too much. If that is the basis for suggesting he is bad at business, I'll give you that platform.

Let's allow this thing to breathe and see what happens.

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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:14 pm 
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I am all in for Theo. I like Friedman better but that is not happening and he has won as many rings with the Rays as the Cubs have in the last 100 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:21 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
I don't understand why Cubs fans would complain so much over Theo.

If the Cubs end up with either Friedman or Epstein, it is a win. There is no downside to either.


This.

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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:21 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
I don't understand why Cubs fans would complain so much over Theo.

If the Cubs end up with either Friedman or Epstein, it is a win. There is no downside to either.


Exactly. You had Hendry and Quade and you are complaining about possibly getting Theo. What the hell?

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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:21 pm 
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Drop In wrote:
immessedup17 wrote:
I don't understand why Cubs fans would complain so much over Theo.

If the Cubs end up with either Friedman or Epstein, it is a win. There is no downside to either.


This.


+1000

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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:29 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
We've been pathetic for years and years, who are we to feel entitled to one or the other. The Cubs will be lucky to get either.

I wouldn't be surprised if either would laugh at the Cubs job, to be honest. They should feel above the job, in all honesty. I'm just hoping one or the other feels he can be the guy to bring a championship here.


Before I continue, I want to make sure those that don't realize I'm highly cynical with everything Cubs. For me to be positive about something is difficult. The Cubs won't be lucky to get one of these guys, and it's certainly not a job to laugh at. As stated 1.7 million times, any exec that brings a World Series Championship to the Cubs will be a legend. Also, ownership has proven they want to develop players. They spent 20 something million this year on signing bonuses to children. Many GM's would love to have that kind of support.

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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:27 pm 
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If Epstein is so great, why hasn't Boston ownership extended his contract? Why do Boston fans want him gone?? Sorry, I think the guy is overrated.

It also seems like FanBoy is so enthralled with the Whiz Kid that no one else seems to be getting interviewed. I hope he has a backup plan in case the Whiz Kid says no to FanBoy and uses the Cubs leverage to get more years out of Boston. That scenario could very well happen.

Would Epstein be an upgrade over Hendry? Maybe, maybe not. To me, he has spent like 300M on bad free agents just like Hendry.

I'd much prefer someone with a proven record of talent evaluation and to me, that is not Epstein.


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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:31 pm 
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As to the 2 championships coinciding with Epsteins tenure, that is great, but does all the credit go to Epstein? I posted this earlier in this thread and I will repost it:



Theo Epstein And Starting Pitching
By Tim Dierkes [October 4 at 9:41am CST]
Theo Epstein was hired as GM of the Red Sox on November 25th, 2002, so he's coming up on nine years at the helm. The fatal flaw with Epstein's disappointing 2011 club was starting pitching, which prompted me to investigate his work assembling rotations.

2003 - Won wild card. 4.30 rotation ERA ranked fifth in AL.

•Derek Lowe - acquired via trade by Dan Duquette in 1997.
•Tim Wakefield - signed as a free agent by Duquette in '95.
•Pedro Martinez - acquired by Duquette in '97.
•John Burkett - signed as a free agent by Duquette in '01.
•Casey Fossum - drafted by Duquette in '99.
Epstein had nothing to do with the '03 rotation, so we can strike it from his record.

2004 - Won World Series. 4.31 rotation ERA ranked third in AL.

•Curt Schilling - acquired by Epstein in '03.
•Pedro Martinez
•Tim Wakefield
•Derek Lowe
•Bronson Arroyo - claimed off waivers by Epstein in '03.
Epstein deserves credit for 40% of this group, and Schilling was of course crucial.

2005 - Won wild card. 4.56 rotation ERA ranked seventh in AL.

•Tim Wakefield - He signed an extension in '05 with a recurring $4MM club option, so perhaps he became part of Epstein's ledger here or with the '06 season.
•Bronson Arroyo
•Matt Clement - signed by Epstein in '04
•David Wells - signed by Epstein in '04.
•Curt Schilling
•Wade Miller - signed by Epstein in '04.
This was not an impressive group, and most of them can be attributed to Epstein.

2006 - Missed playoffs. 5.00 rotation ERA ranked 11th in AL.

•Josh Beckett - Seth Mnookin's 2006 book Feeding the Monster mainly credits president Larry Lucchino for the November '05 Beckett trade, as Epstein was on hiatus. The book says assistant GM Jed Hoyer was in constant consultation with Epstein at the time and was wary of making the deal. Beckett had a rough '06 season, during which Epstein extended him potentially through 2010.
•Curt Schilling
•Tim Wakefield
•Jon Lester - The 2002 draftee officially goes on the ledger of interim GM Mike Port, though Epstein was in the organization as assistant GM by that point.
•Matt Clement
•Kyle Snyder - claimed off waivers by Epstein in '06.
2007 - Won World Series. 4.21 rotation ERA ranked second in AL.

•Daisuke Matsuzaka - acquired by Epstein in '06 via the posting system.
•Tim Wakefield
•Josh Beckett
•Curt Schilling
•Julian Tavarez - signed by Epstein as a free agent in '06.
•Jon Lester
2008 - Won wild card. 4.02 rotation ERA ranked third in AL.

•Jon Lester
•Tim Wakefield
•Daisuke Matsuzaka
•Josh Beckett
•Clay Buchholz
2009 - Won wild card. 4.63 rotation ERA ranked eighth in AL.

•Josh Beckett
•Jon Lester - Prior to this season, Epstein signed Lester potentially through 2014.
•Brad Penny - signed by Epstein as a free agent in '08.
•Tim Wakefield
•Clay Buchholz - drafted by Epstein in '05.
•Daisuke Matsuzaka
•John Smoltz - signed by Epstein as a free agent in '09.
2010 - Missed playoffs. 4.17 rotation ERA ranked sixth in AL.

•John Lackey - signed by Epstein as a free agent in '09.
•Jon Lester
•Clay Buchholz
•Daisuke Matsuzaka
•Josh Beckett - A new extension for Beckett was completed by Epstein prior to this season, running through 2014.
•Tim Wakefield - Wakefield's recurring option had been exercised three times. Prior to this season, Epstein hammered out a new two-year extension.
2011 - Missed playoffs. 4.49 rotation ERA ranked ninth in AL.

•Jon Lester
•Josh Beckett
•John Lackey
•Tim Wakefield
•Clay Buchholz
•Andrew Miller - signed by Epstein as a free agent in '10.
Epstein has put together eight rotations in his time as Red Sox GM. Three could comfortably be described as above-average. Schilling and Arroyo, his best starting pitching acquisitions, came eight years ago. So far Buchholz has been the only drafted starting pitcher to make an impact in one of Epstein's rotations, with '06 pick Justin Masterson becoming a major piece of the '09 trade for Victor Martinez. While Matsuzaka has been disappointing as a whole, he made major contributions in '07 and '08. Epstein also deserves credit for extending Wakefield, Beckett, and Lester.

Free agent starting pitchers have been a problem, with significant dollars spent on Lackey, Clement, Penny, and Smoltz. And for a $103MM commitment, Dice-K has not paid off.

The Red Sox seem to have relative stability in their recent rotations, and Lester, Beckett, and Buchholz will be part of the 2012 group. Still, a major acquisition seems likely this offseason. For all of Epstein's positive contributions to the club, his ability to acquire good veteran starting pitching must be questioned.




** The bottom line is I think there are real questions to ask about his ability to build a pitching staff and to allocate free agent dollars. To me, he has been mediocre AT BEST in these 2 crucial areas.


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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:36 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
cpguy wrote:
Talk is cheap. All owners say that. The proof is getting someone who can do that. I just don't see Epstein as that guy.


You are such an idiot. You bitch no matter what. Epstein put together a team that won 2 championships and they did it with a lot of homegrown talent.

Please elaborate on that home grown talent. Which players? Who signed them and under whose regime??


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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:38 pm 
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Drop In wrote:
This is the problem with today's media. The story has now come full circle, and the only person suggesting Theo has even been in Chicago is some D-Bag at a Starbucks. I'm 99.9% sure the Tribune can suck on my assholes. Theo Epstein has done more in baseball by age 37 than most execs will do in their life. The fact we are questioning this is insane.

I've also had enough of the fanboy stuff. Ricketts has made some bad PR decisions, and actual decisions in his time here. No question. However, he didn't get dumb the minute he officially purchased the team. His dad is probably a better businessman. That doesn't mean Tom Ricketts is a bad one. They started the process of purchasing the team just prior to the worst economy since the Great Depression. They paid too much. Probably 150 million too much. If that is the basis for suggesting he is bad at business, I'll give you that platform.

Let's allow this thing to breathe and see what happens.

His dad is "probably" a better businessman? Come on now dude. That is not even open to debate. It was Daddy's money that bought the fucking team!


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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:39 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
Yet it is the Cubs, and none who have had that mindset have succeeded. I don't trust Crane Kenney, and I don't have enough time to evaluate Ricketts. Epstein and Friedman might have the same thinking.

Having Kenney still with the organization is an absolute joke. You know damn well anyone considering the job has to be asking if Kenney will be launched.


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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:43 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
cpguy wrote:
Talk is cheap. All owners say that. The proof is getting someone who can do that. I just don't see Epstein as that guy.


You are such an idiot. You bitch no matter what. Epstein put together a team that won 2 championships and they did it with a lot of homegrown talent.

Didn't Andy MacPhail win 2 rings? Wasn't he the last "Whiz Kid" hired by the Cubs? How did that work out??


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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:44 pm 
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immessedup17 wrote:
There is no downside to either.


Ha! we can review this in 3 years or so if the cubs do in fact hire epstein and they havent won anything. no downside! how the hell can you say that, future boy?


Last edited by man of few opinions on Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:44 pm 
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cpguy wrote:
RFDC wrote:
cpguy wrote:
Talk is cheap. All owners say that. The proof is getting someone who can do that. I just don't see Epstein as that guy.


You are such an idiot. You bitch no matter what. Epstein put together a team that won 2 championships and they did it with a lot of homegrown talent.

Didn't Andy MacPhail win 2 rings? Wasn't he the last "Whiz Kid" hired by the Cubs? How did that work out??


thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:46 pm 
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Jim Hendry vs Theo? You decide :roll: Cmon people....this is a good thing that the Cubs can actually get Theo.

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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:47 pm 
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cpguy wrote:
Please elaborate on that home grown talent. Which players? Who signed them and under whose regime??


Ellsbury
Pedroia
Youkillis
Papelbon
Lester

Ok now your turn. Please list for me the home grown talent related to Friedman in their championship season(s). Go.

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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:48 pm 
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sure, but it isnt that big of a deal. to say there is no downside to this guy coming to town is ridiculous.


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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:10 pm 
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Urlacher's missing neck wrote:
I am all in for Theo. I like Friedman better but that is not happening and he has won as many rings with the Rays as the Cubs have in the last 100 years.




huge difference, he has built that team on a budget in the toughest division in baseball...the cubs would struggle to win 65 games a season in that division. even hendry's massive payroll division winners would not make the playoffs in that division.. i prefer friedman as well but epstein would be 2nd best option...i just do not believe either are coming here

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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:17 pm 
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RFDC wrote:
cpguy wrote:
Please elaborate on that home grown talent. Which players? Who signed them and under whose regime??


Ellsbury
Pedroia
Youkillis
Papelbon
Lester

Ok now your turn. Please list for me the home grown talent related to Friedman in their championship season(s). Go.

I will take Freidmans record over Epstein hands down. Didn't Boston just collapse and loss to Tampa with all this great talent? Wasn't this supposed to be a rebuilding year in Tampa?

And answer the question: if Epstein is so great, why doesn't Boston ownership extend his contract?


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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:21 pm 
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cpguy wrote:
I will take Freidmans record over Epstein hands down. Didn't Boston just collapse and loss to Tampa with all this great talent? Wasn't this supposed to be a rebuilding year in Tampa?


Theo 2 championships + homegrown talent

Friedman 0 championships + homegrown talent

The record seems pretty clear to me. I would be happy with either guy, but to make it seem that Friedman is better based on his "record" is just dumb and does not stand up to scrutiny.

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And answer the question: if Epstein is so great, why doesn't Boston ownership extend his contract?


Well first of all we do not know that they won't. But if they choose to not extend his contract it will be the same reason they let Francona go, a complete over reaction to a bad ending to a season.

Hopefully the Cubs will be the benefactor of their over reaction.

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 Post subject: Re: Theo Epstein
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:21 pm 
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Urlacher's missing neck wrote:
Jim Hendry vs Theo? You decide :roll: Cmon people....this is a good thing that the Cubs can actually get Theo.

Sorry. I'm not sold on the guy. Has FanBoy even called Tampa on Freidman? Probably not. He's totally infatuated by Epstein. Kinda creepy.


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