Your organizational team has had its free agency period, its super bowl and its trading deadline. This season is effectively completed for a group admittedly looking far into the future. Where are the Cubs in terms of competing and then winning? Has your perspective changed since Epstien's Day 1?

I think the Cubs have taken a step back. Their pitching is worse than it was a year ago without any real hope for improvement outside of spending big in FA over the winter? They have an offense that can compete and a pitching staff that gives it back, which is a similar position to teams like the Royals and Twins.

This team will not be good next year. I think we can all agree on that.

I don't see much better times in two years.

Maybe in three years they can develop some pitching (both starting and bullpen), spend money on a front line starter to lead the young group and have a fully matured offense. It seems like they have a lot of OF hitting talent at the lower levels. If they all develop they should be able to trade that for pitching as well.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

They should be competitive in 2014.

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You know me like that.

but like I said, pitching is the most difficult part of the puzzle. The Royals have been losing with emerging young hitters and no pitching for several years.

Grienke will be the diamond in pitching FA next year. I don't think it would be wise to pursue him. It probably would be best to conceed again next year and hope Wood and Samardzija while giving Wells another shot. This does not even address the 4 or so relief spots.

So that gets you into a rut of horrible seasons. What established pitcher is going to want to come here at that point?

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

I don't think so.

This team will bad for a long time.

I would be antsy by the spring of 2014 if they didn't at least look competitve.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Hard to project what year they will be good. 2014 may be too early. I agree pitching is the key concern. But they have re-stocked their minor leagues through solid drafting/signings and then all these trades. They have also wiped the payroll slate clean but for Soriano. The best part is a lot of young guys are getting a chance to play, and we can see if they are any good. If this project takes until 2015, I am fine with it. Once they get good, they will remain there for a long time to come.

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Hawaii (fuck) You

I think they plan to unload as much payroll as possible and begin to sign some guys to bridge the gap for the prospects to start flowing.

I don't think they plan to drag this out until only the prospects work out. I think you'll start to see them start adding real pieces this off-season.

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You know me like that.

Fuck, that's a long time.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

The division is not good enough for it to take that long.

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You know me like that.

As a Cub fan, I couldn't tolerate another conceeded season. They have money, let them use it. Sign middle of the road guys to 2 year deals with club options. Those guys will keep you afloat and will be gone when the young talent emerges. You don't want guys like Castro and Rizzo to get in the habit of accepting losing.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

As a Cub fan, I agree.

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You know me like that.

THis isn't the NFL with no development league. The two can occur mutually.

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

I think it is more about identifying people in this off-season that could be long-term pieces or short-term pieces you could deal. Either way, they would contribute to actual winning.

I'm OK with waiting until 2014 or even 2015 but you can't expect to just add everybody in the year that you think you can compete. It is time to start collecting talent that will be useful in the years to come. The cupboard has been cleared. Now, restock it.

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You know me like that.

I mean actual Pro-level talent.

I understand they are stock-piling prospects already.

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You know me like that.

not much difference in draft picks or the talent available

If they sign two legitimate middle of the rotation guys and a couple of relievers for next year while keeping Garza, they will be better than 79 wins. That should only cost about 30 million

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

Interesting. Let's look at the division outside of the Cubs:

1. Restructure --- Houston is gone.
IMPACT: The Central loses it's weakest link, but it also loses a team that the others can beat up on. No chance.

2. Perennially good --- the Cards have shown that they will always be competitive in the Central. Could win this year and the next couple.

3. Team emergence with performers---- The Pirates are for real. I see them capable of winning the Central this year or the next couple.

4. Stockpiled --- The Reds have many top-level players locked up for multiple years. Could easily be the class of the divsion for the next three years.

5. Questionable --- Brewers had talent but most is gone via trades and FA. Don't know if they'll bounce back to win the Central again in the next 3 years.

When the sorianno money is off the books...that'll be the end of the hendry era, and the leveraged attempt by McDonough and hendry to buy a world series. So this year is definitely a breakdown year....next year will be a little of both...breakdown and trying to lock up some positions moving forward. So 2014 should be a year that people could predict them as legitimate contenders for the division. The cubs will spend money again...they will buy some pitching and buy some players to fill the voids...and frankly theo's record isn't great in that area. Hopefully he has some lessons learned.

So we have gone from "wait til next year" to "wait til 2,3,4 years from now". Only the cubs!!

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Proud to be UNVERIFIED.

But how does that help anything except Ricketts' pocketbook? What should the annual payroll for this "powerhouse heritage MLB franchise" be in order to justify the premium cost of tickets and advertising? Let's go low at $125 million. They're at what, $85 million this year? Less next year. They're never going to spend that money. They're not going to be at $220 million in 2014. That's money that is just dropping to the bottom line. I don't see how that helps the fan or should excite him in any way.

And then a goof like bernstein who has trumpeted the genius of Theo from the heavens and said what a great move it is to put this pile of crap on the diamond says the product is unwatchable and he'll be back "when they're good". What a preposterous viewpoint. Every Cub fan should be horribly offended.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

No the perspective has not changed since day 1.

Of course the Cubs have taken a step back, that was part of the plan. You cannot completely rebuild from the ground up without taking a step back.

The team will not be good next year.

The team will be taking shape in 2014 and moving forward.

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

Of course you can. Especially when you have the resources the Cubs do.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Not with the bad contracts on board. Gotta step back and get those cleared out of the way first.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

You hope.

I understand the need to rebuild the system. But asking fans who have been as patient as Cubs fans to wait 3-4 years for the team to have any hope is rough.

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I don't see how spending an extra $25-40 million in big league payroll per season to try and put something worthy enough for big Cub fans like danny bernstein to watch impedes the rebuilding process in any way.

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

It is what most non meatball fans have been wanting for awhile.

We got what we wanted. No need to jump ship now.

Let Theo and Co do their thing. If it dont work there will be plenty of time to bitch them.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

I was not aware such creatures existed.

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RFDC-

Don't you think it's a fair question to ask where the savings from slashing the payroll are going? Especially for those you're asking to buy season tickets or asking to watch your product on television to maintain advertising rates? Do you think it's fair for a fan to cheer this demolition of a major league ballclub and then refuse to watch it or spend any money on it?

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don

Of course it is fair for someone to ask those things.

I just don't have those concerns right now.

Maybe those of us who are trusting in the new regime will be proven to clueless idiots. Who knows. It is a crazy game. I just know that for my entire life I have watched the Cubs suck it up and IMO do things the wrong way, and finally they are taking a legitimate shot at doing things differently. I am good with that.

_________________
"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

2013: Significant tangible improvement
2014: Compete for a wild card at the very least
2015: Playoffs


This are my expectations and they have not changed.

One thing to remember, at the start if the season you didn't expect to get anything fir Dempster.

I think they did well to get two decent prospects.

I'm a little confused at your take on this, but then I'm not trying to hard to follow it either. So if you are asking about the 40M cut(s) in payroll...and explaining to fans.....from this fans standpoint there are several layers. No, Jed & theo & fanboy have not clued me in or explained the dollar for dollar cuts / investments. I see them trying to cut high priced - low producing ballplayers and replacing them with youthful, cheaper prospects. I also see them investing in the areas of management and scouting. Additional investments in last years draft ( pre Theo)....the new dominican "training" facility...and as much as this irks me...they are investing in property around wrigley and ear-marking $ for wrigley rehab as well. From a roster standpoint...break the fucker down and get rid of the over priced under achievers like Ramirez, sorianno, zambrano...and others.

I am a season ticket holder...an ya, it's a bitch writing the check. I sold all my games but a select few...just went to my first and maybe last game the other day...where in the past I would have been there 15 to 20 times. I'm not going to waste my time...or my money on this product. As fans...that's a choice we have to make.

Lastly, RFDC said it and many fans echo it....we have been waiting for years for a real plan & rebuild...not the patch work stuff we have been getting for decades. The cubs will invest in the team again...new revenue streams (from current investments) will be there and I think the cubs will have a significant payroll again....at 125 to 150M in today's dollars.

My 2 cents.

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Proud to be UNVERIFIED.

So you're not renewing your package next year? Or you expect someone else to buy your tickets to watch some horseshit baseball?

I have no issue with you as a season ticket holder supporting this plan. You're paying your cash and it's your choice. I'm questioning those who are championing slashing payroll down to Expos levels but then say they refuse to watch. They're assuming that you and others like you are going to spend your money to pay the bills. They like the plan, but think you're a dope for paying for it. I find that hypocritical

_________________
Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Matthew, Tulsi, and Don