Since being hired President of the Cubs is 165-246 at the MLB level. Im starting to think there's almost no chance he finishes over .500 by the end of his Cubs tenure. IMO, thats one of the simplest but biggest reasons his plan was extreme and foolish. There's been a ton of talk lately over what the ideal expectations are going forward. Cubs fans are rightfully frustrated because they think they cant win either way. If they are too optimistic and expect a world series win and 90+ wins in 6 out of 8 seasons then they are labeled as kool aid drinking morons. If they temper their expectations then they get reminded that their team just sucked holy balls for 3 years in a row just to get a chance to be as good as they were in the Jim Hendry era. Just remember it was Theo who put you guys in this situation as fans. Us Sox fans just think you guys deserve better after all you've been through.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

world series justifies everything

an nlcs within five years would probably as well

one playoff appearance should be considered a failure compared to the cost

if he is here long enough, I'm not sure first round exits every 2-3 years would justify the cost

It doesn't matter. The Cubs, as always, are much more focused on profitability

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O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason.

I don't think anything except a World Series win or at the very least several playoff appearances (like 7 in 9 years type thing) justifies how bad they've been for his first three seasons. That's why I never understood the feelings about Theo and Hendry when contrasted. They were competitive more often than not during his time here and virtually everybody agrees Theo is a much better GM/President. He can win 83 games in his sleep!

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I know this phrase has never been uttered, but...

I think Sox fans are overthinking this one.

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Timing is everything. Hendry had just failed to win it all for many years and signed a bunch of franchise strangling contracts and Theo was coming off a great run with the Red Sox.

It would be a lot closer if you polled Cub fans now.

Ive always appreciated Hendry's work personally

There was just a little difference in their payrolls with the Cubs. That might have something to do with it.

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There was a lot of hand-wringing over how much Hendry spent and how it was passed on to us, the fans. Not counting people desperately unloading the Weimar deutschmarks that are late-season Cubs tickets, I bet it was much cheaper to see the Cubs in 2007 than it is in 2014.

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Actually, it's many other people who are not. Three seasons is a long time to be one of the 5 worst teams in the league, purposefully. I think Cub fans should demand pie-in-the-sky results for being this bad for this long in the 3rd biggest market in the country. I just don't think those results will actually happen.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I DEMAND 15 straight World Series

If they, do it should be Ricketts they go after. I can't figure out why Theo gets blamed for the lack of spending. I never will. I guess it's because of the perception that he is "overloved."

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This is another thing people overlook. I don't want to say we're entitled to being good every year because we're in Chicago, but I do believe you can't do business here the way you would in smaller markets. Yeah, you could afford to patiently build a farm system in Atlanta, Montreal, the Twin Cities, and Miami, because it's not like anyone's really going to the games anyway. Even the Angels, who got lots of jerking off for Doing It The Right Way when they won their championship, used to spend stupid money to keep their name in the papers. God knows they do it now.

Over in hockey, there's a great deal of consternation over how the Toronto Maple Leafs act stupidly every year instead of starting all over. And I get part of it in that there is a sense in which they willfully hire ignorant people to run their hockey operations, but I get why they don't want to do the kind of full-scale rebuild that the Panthers and Sabres are doing. This is a global financial capital where people pay big money to go to games, and they claim almost the entirety of Ontario as their exclusive market when the population base could support a second or even third team somewhere in the GTA. But they can't do it the "right way," and perhaps they shouldn't.

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Are you serious?

Maybe if Theo stopped saying "it's not time to win yet" he would get less blame. He's gone above and beyond any obligation to cover for Ricketts and is repeatedly insisting this is HIS doing. He will reap the rewards if they do indeed win a World Series, so of course he gets the blame when they lose 300 games in three years.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

If not the worst in history, close.

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Soccer 1,2,3
Spanish Honor Society 1,2,3,4
Forensics 1,2,3,4

"Smiles with Nostrils"

"...no Hmong, go find some blacks"

He is not void of blame, but you have to blame him in context. The blame for Theo keeps being that he isn't spending enough money in a a MAJOR market. But they're not spending like a major market. He should be held to the standard of a small market team to this point. If he doesn't win once they increase pay roll, then that's another thing.

I don't believe for a second that Theo is sitting there telling Ricketts not to spend money. He is being a company man.

Sox fans on this board sit there and act like they will never be good so none of this matters or being this bad is unacceptable. Well, I can tell you that if this does lead to sustained winning and a World Series, it will have absolutely been worth it to most Cubs fans. And no one knows whether it will work or not (even though many Sox fans claim to).

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I agree with your last point and already said as much in this thread so I don't know who you're arguing that to. If the Cubs have sustained success and/or a WS win it's worth it. Short of that Theo has failed miserably. And of course nobody knows if they will be good in 5 years. Except for Denis and Scooter.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

MAYBE I'M JUST SICK OF YOUR CRAP.

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We don't know if Theo will win a WS with the Cubs. But we can wager on it.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

That's a long-tail bet. What if he's here ten years?

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He won't be unless you have long since won the bet.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

Why do Sox fans get to determine what makes Theo and Jed's tenure a success or failure? Shouldn't the teams fans decide that?

For me...it would be a World Series victory...or at least several playoff appearances with a few NLCS appearances, or a World Series appearance or two.

A 2005 White Sox situation, to me, would be a failure.

Regular season record over the course of the tenure? Meh. That would heavily rely on how long the tenure is. 2016 and 2017 field only .500 teams? Not long. 2016 and 2017 are NLCS / World Series appearances and losses? Theo and Jed get a 8 year extension and have a lot more time to crest .500.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

You basically just agreed with almost everything I wrote except for the confusing part about wanting a World Series victory but not be the 2005 Sox(one of the best teams of the past 15 years).

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

The White Sox have had two playoff appearances since 2000. That would not be acceptable, even if the Cubs win one World Series. This rebuild needs to result in a competitive team over a good period of time.

This method would not be the best method if one World Series is all that matters.

Doing what the Marlins did would be. Pick one single year to be good, and grab a ton of free agents. Then get rid of them all, have no payroll and be terrible for a bunch of years, and then use all those funds to again sign a bunch of free agents...rinse and repeat.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Ok, that's cool. I thought I had a high bar and you raised it. And it's good to know we can roughly agree on what constitutes failure for Theo in the years ahead.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

shocking

One caveat...a World Series is the ultimate goal, and it should be. BUT

I wouldn't call this rebuild a failure if the Cubs, from 2015-2020...appear in the World Series and lose...and maybe have 1 or 2 other NLCS appearances....only miss the playoffs once or twice in that period with teams that were right in the thick of it at the end.

I really want a World Series...but not at the cost of having to write off a bunch of other years. It shouldn't ever have to be that way. I want to be competitive in September. I want to watch my team in October. I could pat Theo and Jed on the back when all is said and done even without a World Series... more of a "fantastic effort" pat on the back. It would still be the best extended period of success in Cubs baseball since before World War II.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

This is the stuff that gets annoying as a White Sox fan, and gives some evidence towards the "arrogance" of Cubs fans.

A season like 2005 would be the greatest time in your baseball life even if they lost every game after that for 10 years.

Yeah, it would have been nice if the Sox won two more titles after 2005. It would be nice if they were the Yankees too.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Everyone wants to watch their team in October. Usually I'll settle for my team at least being watchable throughout the summer. These past three years are what should never happen. (And yes, 1 of 3 seasons the Sox were just as bad).

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

In that case what's the difference between seemingly random periods of success with a WS win or appearance mixed in with some bad, and three to four years of deliberate bad only for the chance of what you talked about: several playoff appearances, NLCS win, etc?

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Successful calls:

Kyrie Irving will never win anything as a team's alpha: check
T.rubisky is a bust: check
Ben Simmons is a liability: check
The Fields Cult is dumb: double check

2013 CSFMB ROY

People forget how great that '05 team was. They won 90 games the next year too and people act like they were below .500 the rest of the way.

_________________
Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

I mean...this is strictly having to do with my personality...or viewpoint...or whatever, but:

I think I can deal with "phases" a bit better than a mixed bag of win loss. It is much easier for me to discuss this now as the losing period on purpose is nearing its end...but I've been on board with a full rebuild for awhile. I didn't post much since 2006...but I believe if I still had some of those posts you'd find me wanting to rebuild as early as 2009...a complete overhaul. The Derrek Lee / Alfonso Soriano / Carlos Zambrano / Aramis Ramirez contracts put the Cubs in a crappy situation.

Some insight: I was not a Bulls fan in the 90's. I was a Magic fan. I then didn't watch much NBA from 1999 to 2002 or so...caught it here and there, but I wasn't a diehard. The Bulls piqued my interest with the drafting of Jay Williams. I had disliked Jalen Rose, Chandler, Curry, Mercer, E-Rob, Fizer, Brand...really the only Bull I liked was Brad Miller. The Bulls re-stocking with Jay Williams (and then his replacement Kirk Hinrich), Ben Gordon, Luol Deng...I enjoy watching young players develop. I'm a fan of teams, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a fan of individual players as well. Winning with a team full of homegrown talent "feels" better. I believe the Blackhawks are an excellent example. Doesn't it feel better that Toews, Kane, Niemi, Crawford, Keith, Seabrook led the way? Sharp to some extent, as he came over young. Hossa was the only big contributor as a free agent.

The Bulls teams centered around Kirk, Gordon, and Deng and then Noah, Taj, Rose, and Deng? I loved it.

This might be why I wore rose colored glasses with Felix Pie and Brett Jackson...you follow a guy for so long and you want that guy to be a part of the team that is successful.

A World Series win is a World Series win. But I'd cherish it some small amount more if Starlin Castro leads the way, rather than trade him for some David Price or Cliff Lee.



No. Honestly, no. Maybe if this wasn't a full rebuild, I'd be fine. But there is a trade-off for willingly accepting multiple losing seasons. And that trade-off is that the highs have to be higher to make up for the low lows.

I'm not a typical Cubs fan maybe - I'm not old enough to be. The losing has been terrible...but "culture" and all of that - it means nothing to me. As far as I'm concerned, the MLB was created around 1996, when I started watching baseball. The only World Series you care about is this year's World Series. And I was on board with sacrificing several chances to most likely provide better chances in the near to mid-term future.
Cubs win the World Series in 2016? In 2017, you will not once see me bring up the 2016 World Series as a reason why I care any less about the results of 2017. Because I'm going to be that adamant as to winning the 2017 World Series as if the 2016 World Series never happened.

I can't and won't speak for the Cubs fan who has been a fan for the last 40 or 50 years.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.