Blaming the attendance on Kenny is just a bit stupid.

Blame dumbass fans that won't believe until August or think it takes 2 hours to get to the park from LaGrange.

Or better yet don't care about the attendance.

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I lean towards the crapshoot thing, but not to the level of Bernstein (I think you know what I mean)

Hendry absolutely did a good job in 2003,2004, 2007, and 2008

Not so much the other years

Ive never been unfair to Hendry. He had some success.

Of course it sounds crazy. By your rationale, whoever works for teams like Kansas City or Pittsburgh is likely to be "worse" than Theo simply by virtue of taking the job. Do you follow baseball at all? There's an ongoing discussion about big markets and small markets and competitive balance.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

i like the low attendance at both parks, personally. not only do you have the ability to decide "hey, i wanna go to a baseball game today" and go, but a lot of the tourists are weeded out and you're left with this critical mass of morons (i mean who the fuck goes to a game with all the HD camera angles? especially football. being in a throng of thousands cheering on your team in a visceral escapist release! TELL 'EM BERNSIE THEY'RE GODDAMN IDIOTS STAY HOME WITH YOUR WHITE PICKET FENCE AND GRAB LIFE BY THE BALLS!)

ahem. the only people left @ these "baseball stadiums" are people who want to see a baseball game, and i don't know about you but i'll be damned if they're going to try to force me to sit there and watch a baseball game when i'm at a goddamned "baseball stadium." there's chicks and $8 beers to cement my status as a buzzin idiot! TALLY HO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Especially since Kenny's yearly shakedown is ALWAYS a total Bluff


They try to win every year regardless of attendance.


I think Sox fans should laugh and say, "Cant wait to see who ya get at the deadline, Ken!"


See ya at the park in August....maybe

That was only because I misunderstood when you said Kenny's success was "slightly above average" I thought you meant in comparison to the rest of the league and not one person. Kenny is actually the worst GM in history, when you only compare him to Theo. That also means Theo is the best GM in history, but only when you are comparing those two.

We know Kenny is the worst GM in history when you take out every other GM, but how would you compare his success to the rest of the league and not just Theo? Is he still "slightly above average"? Are there really 12-14 GM's out there that have had better success? Let me be clear that we are not talking about Kenny and Theo alone right now.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

So what is the mark for Theo to have been considered great?

Win a WS? What if he wins 1 WS, but misses the playoffs every other year? What if the Cubs lose in the WS in 2016, but don't make it past the NLCS in 2017 and 2018. Is 3 playoff years a success? If it was for Hendry, it should be for Theo. How long do you give Theo? If the Cubs are .500 or slightly better than .500 in 2015 and 2016 do you stick with him? What if they don't make the playoffs until 2018, but look to be set up to be a powerhouse NL team?

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Not radically different from the success Epstein has had.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

If Theo wanted to prove how good he is, he'd take over the Royals.

Win with them tough guy!

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Good point.

Which market does Kenny work in again?

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Well, that's another discussion entirely. Obviously, he works in a big market. But his ownership acts as if they're a small market team. I don't think that has anything to do with Kenny Williams. It's just the situation that he's in.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Top 5 in all of MLB payroll, 4 out of the last 6 years, as pointed out earlier. 7th another year.

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You can be as condescending as you want, but the discussion started when I said the Cubs had an extremely successful GM and you said "So do the Sox" which is saying they are equal.

They are not

What if Kenny is 10th? What words would you use? A little above average?

Well obviously the Cubs are in a unique situation (just like the Red Sox and White Sox where when Theo and Kenny got there) of not winning in forever.

So, Cubs fans its simple: Win the WS or dont.


But if you're taking the fandom away and trying to judge him without bias, Id say he has to make the post season more times than he misses it.

We're going back and forth here. They don't spend money on the draft. They are near the bottom in spending for the minor league system. And they don't spend anywhere near what the Red Sox did on the big league roster during Theo's tenure as GM. The White Sox don't have the resources the Red Sox or the Cubs do. Are you really unwilling to acknowledge that?

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

They have the greatest resource a team could ever have.
Kenny Williams.


I'd actually enjoy a discussion about why the Sox attendance is so bad - not making the same usual jokes, but looking for the real, factual reason(s). Which is essentially what keeps them from being an actual "big market" franchise.
Any guesses/theories?

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Jorr, top 7 payroll in 5 of last 6 years. Thats not small market.

Trading for Peavy's contract is not small market

Signing Dunn is not small market

I say this as a Sox fan: Sox fans are one of the worst, most miserable groups of people in sports.

"It's not easy to get to" - Fuck you. It's right off one highway, less than 2 miles from another, and accessible from CTA and Metra.

"I still haven't forgiven Reinsdorf for the strike and the white flag trade" - Fuck you and grow up.

"There's nothing to do around the park" - Fuck you. There's a bar/restaurant across the parking lot by Gate 5. There's Cork at the Park a block away. There's a bar/restaurant 5 blocks walk down 35th street.

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fixed.

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I don't remember half the time if I'm hiding or I'm lost

That really isn't saying they are equal. The problem is you took it that way.
10th would not be a little above average. That would be top third of the league.

I'd still love to see that list. I think you'd have a real hard time coming up with 9 other GM's that Kenny would trade his record of success with.

Remember, we aren't talking about ability, and we never were. We were talking about success.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

The economy, so less disposable income for a lot people. While they have ticket specials, its still at least $10 if you want to have a soda and a hotdog, $15 if you want a beer and a hotdog. I can go to a game and not eat or drink anything there. You can't take kids to a game and not get them ice cream, a pretzel, churros...something. And probably a souviner too.

I think there are more Sox fans that live in the suburbs than in the city while There are more Cubs fans in and around the city. While its not terribly hard to drive to the Cell from destinations south and west, its horrible to get there from the north. Parking is also $25 unless you are willing to walk a little bit. I don't mind the upper deck at the Cell, but I can see why some people wouldn't like it.

There is little to do around the park before or after games unless you are tailgating. There are townhouses that went up on State St between 35th and 37th st. The City should have put 2-4 bars/restuarants there to live the nieghborhood up a bit. I mean there is Cork at the Park and a few other places along Halsted, but its bad in comparison to other parts of the city. Some fans (Cubs, Sox, Bears, Yankees, Royals, whatever) go to games solely to party. And again unless you are tailgating, you simply cannot do that at a Sox game like you can at a Cubs game.

You add that all up and you can see why its 20K a game. It should be more, but its not. It is what it is. I get there when I can. From the time I turned 21 in 2003 to the time I got a real job in 2008, I probably went to 12-20 games a year, and that is including a time when I was in Montana for school. Now I get to 3-5 games a year. Personally, I'd rather BYOB and food and tailgate for a while before a game rather than spend money in bars, but I simply don't have time to do that during the week. Life gets in the way sometimes too.

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See what I mean?

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Those aren't my excuses, Peeps. I went to one of the Sox games against the Blue Jays. I left my house at like 5:15 give or take. I parked on State St just south of 37th st, and was in the parking lot enjoying a beer with some friends at like 6pm. Wasn't a bad drive at all and I traded about a 10minute walk for free street parking. Was very safe and very cut and dry.

My biggest reason for not going is lack of time.

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phil jackson once said that sports talk radio was "mental masturbation." this board is like "mental masturbation" with sandpaper.

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I know Frank.

I'm just funnin.

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I think their biggest mistake was tring to turn baseball into an NBA game with constant aural and visual assaults. Reinsdorf saw that approach work with the Bulls (although having Jordan helped ) and he implemented at at his ballpark. Baseball isn't that kind of game. It's difficult to have a conversation at Sox Park. There's always some stupid noise. Baseball is a game of conversation. I think this type of "entertainment" is now pervasive throughout baseball, but the Sox were one of the leaders and remain one of the worst offenders. It's slowly crept into Wrigley and eventually it will take over there too. I don't think the marketeers really know what people like about baseball. It reminds us of all that once was good and that could be again.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

the white sox have guys named "the cuban pimp" and "bacon" on the team. think about this: if two guys named "the cuban pimp" and "bacon" don't make you want to watch some goddamn baseball what hope is there for you? do you not like cuban pimps smothered in bacon? if not something is definitely wrong with you!

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The timing on both of your & Frank's posts was amazing.

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I agree with this post.

I would add that not only is it a lack of disposable income, but priorities changed for many people with the latest economic downturn and for many people things don't look to be getting better any time soon. I know Tall Midget doesn't post here any more, but he could go on for kilocharacters about the destruction of the poor and middle classes. The other Chicago fan bases have enough fans that are doing well enough. The Sox have less.

To be honest, it's actually a fairly good sign for America if people are choosing to save money or get less debt than go to White Sox games where you are spending at a minimum $25 a person(and that is a strict one drink, one hot dog policy) when you can do the same thing for $5 a person at home. For Jerry Reinsdorf, it's not a great thing but he will make his money on television.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Other than the money, none of those reasons are valid.

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