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Sox give Vasquez a $34.5 million deal
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Author:  Mustang Rob [ Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Sox give Vasquez a $34.5 million deal
http://www.dailysouthtown.com/sports/28 ... 06.article

They must see something I haven't yet, but either way he seems like a bargain after this spring.
Author:  Beardown [ Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:54 pm ]
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Look at the market Rob. 11 million per year is the going rate for a .500 pitcher that eats up 200 innings.
Author:  Mustang Rob [ Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:06 pm ]
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You're right Beardown.
I just found this nugget as well.

Quote:
How many American League pitchers strike out 8 batters per nine and walk fewer than 2.5? Not many. Vazquez's command, as measured by K/BB, is among the best in the AL. Only Schilling, Santana, Haren, and Halladay pitched 200 innings with better command. And Vazquez is a virtual lock for 32+ starts.
Author:  good dolphin [ Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:39 pm ]
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It's a strange world in the MLB. I suppose I would rather step up with a few million more a year and lock up Buhrle.
Author:  Chus [ Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:46 pm ]
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I would rather have him for that price than Marquis, Lilly, or Meche.
Author:  hawkeye [ Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:54 pm ]
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Quote:
It's a strange world in the MLB. I suppose I would rather step up with a few million more a year and lock up Buhrle.


So would I and I'll be that KW would have as well. To me this means two things. Buehrle is looking for a BIG payday, not just a "few million more". Or they are getting close to a new deal with him and just completed this one a little earlier.
Author:  Fargin Bastage [ Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:00 pm ]
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Quote:
I would rather have him for that price than Marquis, Lilly, or Meche.


Totally agree. However, think about the REAL numbers here. $10,000,000 per year for a average MLB chucker. $10,000,000!! I have a SI cover of Ryne Sandberg being crowned "Baseballs Salary King" @ 7 million. The tag line was "For Now". No sh&$! I fret over if I should go with the $36 surf and turf or just stay with a $21 NY strip. To me, that kind of coin is as hard to comprehend as the size of the universe*

* Maybe stoneroses knows?
Author:  Hawkeye Vince [ Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:48 pm ]
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And the fact is Vazquez is only 30. 7 straight seasons over 198 innings pitched, throw out his first year and he's 95-90 with a 4.17 ERA over those 8 seasons.

He's never been a number 1 material but as a 4, he's in good shape and the salary is probably in line with the market now. And if he has an OK year, he'll be trade bait.
Author:  suckers playground [ Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:26 pm ]
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my only problem with vasquez is that he's prone to giving up the long ball, which is what happens when you have a bunch of available pitches and throw a ton of innings, though it should be noted that his HRs given up took a welcome dive last year, despite the move to an even tighter hitters park in the Cell.

vasquez, though, should NOT be compared to ted lilly, gil meche, or any other shitbag with a clean bill of health and piss-poor numbers. vasquez has averaged 218 IP and 188 K's and a 1.27 WHIP (walks + hits / innings pitched) over a 9 year career. that is fucking impressive, especially to remain that consistent in the years after the "juiced arm" era of 300+ K seasons.

in fact, compare these two sets of stats:

Line 1: 215 IP, 223 Hits, 106 ER, 35 HR, 46 BB, 192 K
Line 2: 202 IP, 206 Hits, 109 ER, 23 HR, 56 BB, 184 K

Line 1 is 2005 in Arizona, Line 2 is 2006 here in Chicago. The problem is, Vasquez' '06 campaign was an outlier, in only one category -- ERA. He was off by .5, and I have a feeling this season he'll regress to the mean -- i.e., closer to 4.00, which is still well above replacement value.

I will present a further case as time warrants. Right now, I'm headed out to the bar.
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:43 pm ]
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this one is definitely a head scratcher. but then again, in the 2nd half of 2004 and the first half of 2005, i was doing that every time jose contrares took the bump. and look whats happened there. its hard for me not to have faith in cooper to work with him. besides, at least this year, if vazquez only goes 5 innings, we have a solid bullpen. last year it was almost certain that vazquez would go 5 or maybe into the 6th, and no matter how good or bad he pitched, mccarthy and/or cotts and/or riske would come in during those middle ingings and give up runs
Author:  good dolphin [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:49 am ]
Post subject: 
hawkeye wrote:
Quote:
It's a strange world in the MLB. I suppose I would rather step up with a few million more a year and lock up Buhrle.


So would I and I'll be that KW would have as well. To me this means two things. Buehrle is looking for a BIG payday, not just a "few million more". Or they are getting close to a new deal with him and just completed this one a little earlier.


I'm thinking positively and believing the later is true. When you think about it, this deal flies in the face of everything KW said and did during the offseason. Making this deal but not signing Buhrle seems illogical. On the other hand, signing either Vazquez or Buhrle after making those offseason moves is not consistent either.

I hope KW will sign Buhrle while also maintaining the stockpile of young talent. Contrearas and Vazquez are both locked into market to below market deals which makes them tradeable as time goes on. If the young pitchers develop, they can be moved. If not, at least the Sox are set with a good staff for several years.
Author:  OakBrookJoe [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:17 am ]
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I don't mind the signing. If the sox would have tried to resign him in free agency it would have cost more. Plus he was willing to take a pay cut to stay here. If they could only find a way where he didnt have to pitch in the fifth inning..........

I think it takes some leverage away from Burhle too.
Author:  NotInTheBiz [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:37 am ]
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Let's not forget, KW can now say he "tried to keep the starting staff together in the current marketplace." He had to move sweaty Freddy to get some young arms "because he is looking to the future" and he won't be able to sign Buerhle as "we don't go beyond 3 years" for pitchers.

He's also quoted in today's paper saying 'the door closes April 1...to focus on the season." Translation: MB is gone by the deadline if he doesn't agree to terms this spring.
Author:  Keyser Soze [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:53 am ]
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I heard an interview with KW where he said Vasquez approached them. The numbers made sense so he made the deal. I think it was a smart baseball move. Now I hope Garland and Buehrle 'approach' them too.
Author:  Mustang Rob [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:39 pm ]
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Garland & Contreras are locked up for another 2 years (Jose 3 actually).
Both are well under market with their $10mil/per and that makes them nearly untouchable on this staff.

The reports yesterday said that Buehrle's agent was sending a proposal to KW. If his asking price is in the 5 yrs $75 mil range, it would be tough for the Sox to turn it down. Either way its a good sign that they're still talking.
Author:  MartyD [ Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:58 pm ]
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Quote:
The reports yesterday said that Buehrle's agent was sending a proposal to KW. If his asking price is in the 5 yrs $75 mil range, it would be tough for the Sox to turn it down. Either way its a good sign that they're still talking.


That's far too generous for Buerhle given his awful 2nd half last year. Besides, the Sox aren't going to give a pitcher 5 years. 3 with a 4th year option for somewhere around $40M, $52M if the option is exercised seems fair, imo.
Author:  Minnesota Fats [ Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:55 pm ]
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Vasquez was worth every $ of it today.

Hey Dusty, Latins can play in the cold.
Author:  BD [ Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:58 pm ]
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Minnesota Fats wrote:
Vasquez was worth every $ of it today.

Hey Dusty, Latins can play in the cold.


That's been the story of his career though. Consistentcy. He needs to do this over the course of a season, start to start. He needs to in that #4 role more than ever with a possible revolving door in the #5 spot.
Author:  Beardown [ Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:00 pm ]
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If you guys remember, he started off last year great last season. I think he was like 5-1 or something. We were talking all- star team for him. Then he hit a slump (4th and 5th inning always got him as we all remember). But he finished off last year pretty good.

Ya know, he was just as good as Freddy last year as strange as that might sound. Freddy won alot of games 8-7 and 6-5. Freddy got the runs and Vasquez didn't in alot of games. Freddy got 17 wins because of it and Vasquez got only 13 or 14.
Author:  BD [ Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:06 pm ]
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Beardown wrote:
If you guys remember, he started off last year great last season. I think he was like 5-1 or something. We were talking all- star team for him. Then he hit a slump (4th and 5th inning always got him as we all remember). But he finished off last year pretty good.

Ya know, he was just as good as Freddy last year as strange as that might sound. Freddy won alot of games 8-7 and 6-5. Freddy got the runs and Vasquez didn't in alot of games. Freddy got 17 wins because of it and Vasquez got only 13 or 14.


I'm OK with Vasquez....To have a #4 starter who can be light out is pretty nice to have. Look at Minny's rotation after Santana, and maybe Bonzer. Guys like Ortiz, and Ponson....This is not to say Vasquez is great or anything - I just want more consistentcy out of him.
Author:  Mr. Reason [ Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:15 pm ]
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Minnesota Fats wrote:
Quote:
Vasquez was worth every $ of it today.

Hey Dusty, Latins can play in the cold.


"Veni, vidi vici" - Javier Vasquez
Author:  Beardown [ Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:17 pm ]
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Last years stats

Freddy Garcia- 216 innings, 135 strike outs, 48 walks, 4.53 ERA, 17-9 reccord

Javier Vasquez- 208 innings, 184 strike outs, 56 walks, 4.84 ERA, 11-12 reccord.

Basicaly the same year only Freddy got more wins because he got more runs. But look at Vasquez strike outs last year. Wow. Media and some fans don't realize this. That's why everybody was crying when Freddy got traded. They would have loved it to be Vasquez who got traded but basicaly they had the same year last year. You can't control the wins as a pitcher.
Author:  Minnesota Fats [ Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:25 pm ]
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Would you rather have Meche @11mil/year or Vasquez @11mil/year?

I'll go with Vasquez without a second thought.

Look around the league, he is a great #4.
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:03 pm ]
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yeah, and lookit your silly sig line. pfft, kingdumb cum :p
Author:  suckers playground [ Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:10 pm ]
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suckers playground wrote:
my only problem with vasquez is that he's prone to giving up the long ball, which is what happens when you have a bunch of available pitches and throw a ton of innings, though it should be noted that his HRs given up took a welcome dive last year, despite the move to an even tighter hitters park in the Cell.

vasquez, though, should NOT be compared to ted lilly, gil meche, or any other shitbag with a clean bill of health and piss-poor numbers. vasquez has averaged 218 IP and 188 K's and a 1.27 WHIP (walks + hits / innings pitched) over a 9 year career. that is fucking impressive, especially to remain that consistent in the years after the "juiced arm" era of 300+ K seasons.

in fact, compare these two sets of stats:

Line 1: 215 IP, 223 Hits, 106 ER, 35 HR, 46 BB, 192 K
Line 2: 202 IP, 206 Hits, 109 ER, 23 HR, 56 BB, 184 K

Line 1 is 2005 in Arizona, Line 2 is 2006 here in Chicago. The problem is, Vasquez' '06 campaign was an outlier, in only one category -- ERA. He was off by .5, and I have a feeling this season he'll regress to the mean -- i.e., closer to 4.00, which is still well above replacement value.

I will present a further case as time warrants. Right now, I'm headed out to the bar.


i never got around to furthering my case, so i'll let javy further his own. the guy's valuable, despite media panic.
Author:  Beardown [ Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:14 pm ]
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I agree. It pisses me off how many stupid talk show hosts and writers we have. Nobody knows how to look at baseball and know what's going on. They just look at Javy's reccord last year and remember a bad stretch and they all think he sucks.

On the other hand, they look at Fredy's 17-9 reccord and think he was great. In both cases they were wrong. People are stupid some times.
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:41 am ]
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i think both freddy and javy had 2006 seasons that were worlds better than buehrle and most of the sox bullpen (sans jenks, thornton, and macdougal-- for the most part)
Author:  Beardown [ Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:45 am ]
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That's the irony. Buehrle made the all-star team last year. He was a fringe guy that made it. But that 2nd half was god awful for Buehrle.
Author:  suckers playground [ Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:34 pm ]
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i was posting, literally, an essay length analysis of mark buehrle against his PECOTA comparables: jerry reuss, jim kaat, jim abbott, and (as of the most recent update) sidney ponson. luckily for you, it got lost when my browser crashed somewhere in the middle of the ninth paragraph. needless to say, though, i agree with the last three comments, and the thing about buehrle is that other guys like him in the past had mediocre age 28 seasons (besides jim abbott, who totally imploded and left baseball three years later) but steadily declined into their 30's. worse yet, kaat and reuss had speed working on their side -- they changed their game in their mid-30's to become "crafty" lefties, which is what buehrle essentially is in his prime seasons, which doesn't bode well for his future.

that said, the vasquez signing is brilliant so long as he remains healthy, and there's no reason to believe he won't be. however, if kenny re-signs buehrle, it could spell disaster for a team that i expect (due to compensation draft picks + further trades for young players) to hit another peak between 2009/2010.
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