Chicago Fanatics Message Board
https://mail.chicagofanatics.com/

Bartolo or Livan?
https://mail.chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=29011		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  bigfan [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:36 am ]
Post subject:  Bartolo or Livan?
While I understand the Bartolo signing and agree it is not a bad risk, however if you had to offer Livan $2 M or Bartolo $1 M, which would you prefer?
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
Bartolo.
Author:  Hatchetman [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
good god that's a no-brainer. bartolo.
Author:  good dolphin [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
Livan will give you 200 bad innings. Bartolo may only give you 50 good ones. I'll take my chances with Colon. If that spot fails, it will be in the hands of a rookie by August anyway.
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
August? If he's that bad, I hope they pull the plug on him earlier.

That said, I will be more than satisfied if he goes say 25 starts, or 10-10 with an ERA in the low 4's, I'll take that out of a 5th starter.
Author:  RFDC [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
Between those 2 I would go with Colon. But if it were me I would have probably passed on both and taken a chance on Freddy Garcia.
Author:  Regular Reader [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
Bartolo, and if you HAVE to have a Hernandez brother, I'll take El Duque.
Author:  SHARK [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
I think both Bartolo Colon & Livan Hernandez are out of shape and in poor condition! I'd rather have "El Duque" and that leg kick of his...
Author:  suckers playground [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
Frank Coztansa wrote:
That said, I will be more than satisfied if he goes say 25 starts, or 10-10 with an ERA in the low 4's, I'll take that out of a 5th starter.


Good luck with that. You basically described league average, and very few 5th starters are league average, especially those who are severe injury risks. Your scenario makes Kenny look like a genius with this deal. I sincerely hope this is true, but I doubt it just the same.
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
suckers playground wrote:
Kenny look like a genius

But he's not. Its all luck. Just ask bigfan :P
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
Turning Joe Borchard into Matt Thornton is sheer genius. David Wells was not very good for the Sox, but he was traded for Mike Sirotka, who never pitched in the big leagues again after that transaction.

Good try though paul :roll:
Author:  suckers playground [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
Frank, did you read any of the other words in my response? You're smoking something fierce if you expect the line from Bart C. that you threw out there. That's his ceiling, and it's very, very high from where he's at right now.
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
I think if he can stay healthy, he can win 10 games with an ERA at say 4.40
Author:  suckers playground [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
Never mind the fact that he can barely top 90 on a radar gun. Speed isn't everything but changing speeds certainly was that guy's bread and butter when he was going well.

10 wins and a 4.40 ERA is a pipe dream for a 5th starter. It can happen, but to "expect" that is to set yourself up for a huge letdown.
Author:  Hatchetman [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
i think schuler drafted big joe.
Author:  Keyser Soze [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
Paulie Pennino wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Turning Joe Borchard into Matt Thornton is sheer genius. David Wells was not very good for the Sox, but he was traded for Mike Sirotka, who never pitched in the big leagues again after that transaction.

Good try though paul :roll:

Was it genius to draft Borchard? Was it genius to bring in an out of shape pitcher to criticise the big skirt? how many more games did wells win for the sox than sirotka after said deal? 4? 5? No comment on Todd Ritchie


Look I think Kenny is good hes in the top half of gms but "genius" is ridiculous. Even if being sarcastic...theres 10 gms in baseball that have a better resume than kenny


List those 10 Gm's and I'll give you trades they made that didn't work out. It is very telling that you have to go back to '00 and '01 for examples of Kenny's bad trades.
Author:  bigfan [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
Ritchie, Welles, Borchard are just the ones that didn't work out. I don't blame Kenny for that.

The one you can go after Kenny for is Brian Anderson. You could not get a better look at a kid. From High School, to U of A.

Kenny might have actually seen too much of the kid and convinced himself he was great.

You could say he is the Sox Corey Patterson. Which I would still take over Anderson if I ma taking a 4th or 5th OF. Late inning replacement, SB guy and some power. Patterson has had some GREAT stretches in the Majors. From his first half of his rookie season, to a an amazing SB stretch in Baltimore and even the first month of last year for Dusty. He is a guy you ride for a while and then shut him down.,
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
Somebody please explain to me how the David Wells deal was bad? Was Boomer good for the Sox? Not very. But yet again I will bring this to everybody's attention. Mike Sirotka never threw a pitch in MLB after that trade! So, it was Boomer Wells for reliever Kevin Biernen who, iirc, didn't appear in more than 10 games for the Blue Jays. And even a healthy, dominant Wells would not have helped the 2001 Sox who were decimated by injuries.

Wow, what a horrible move! :roll:
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
Colon: 4.1 IP, 2H, 0R, 4K, Hit 90 or 91 on the gun today
Author:  bigfan [ Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
Then you have nothing to worry about and all is well. There should be no excuses for not winning the division with by far the best staff in the divsion.

What did Contreras do today?
Author:  Keyser Soze [ Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Colon: 4.1 IP, 2H, 0R, 4K, Hit 90 or 91 on the gun today



Come on Frank, seriously? He hit 91 once and was 87 all day. He'll get his shit handed to him the next time out then get shown the door. He's toast.
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
:lol: No. Though, if he could give the Sox like 3 good starts before Memorial Day, that could be nice.
Author:  Elmhurst Steve [ Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
suckers playground wrote:
Never mind the fact that he can barely top 90 on a radar gun. Speed isn't everything but changing speeds certainly was that guy's bread and butter when he was going well.

10 wins and a 4.40 ERA is a pipe dream for a 5th starter. It can happen, but to "expect" that is to set yourself up for a huge letdown.



Jason Marquis with the Chicago Cubs:

2007 12 wins, 9 losses 191 innins pitched 4.60 ERA

2008 11 wins 9 losses 167 innings pitched 4.53 ERA

Pretty much the kind of stats Frank was calling for. If you do not believe Colon can pitch as well as Marquis did the past 2 seasons, you really do not expect much from him.
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
I would be happy with a 5th starter that takes the bump every 5th game, pitches into the 6th inning, and gives up 3 or fewer runs more times than not.
Author:  Keyser Soze [ Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
The world has righted itself, Frank.


Colon: 4.0 IP, 11 H, 7 ER, 1 BB, 1 K
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
Not that I'm penciling him in for 12 or 15 wins, but today was certainly promising from Bartolo.
Author:  Mr. Reason [ Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
Bartolo, Livan and Frank, what do these three have in common?

Rub a dub dub, three chubs in a tub...
Author:  Keyser Soze [ Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
The first time through the rotation and Colon is the only starter with a win. I would've lost a lot of money on that bet.
Author:  RFDC [ Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
Mr. Reason wrote:
Bartolo, Livan and Frank, what do these three have in common?

Rub a dub dub, three chubs in a tub...


:lol: :lol: :lol:
Author:  suckers playground [ Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bartolo or Livan?
Not ready to concede anything after one decent start, especially as he let up a few long fly-outs that, thankfully, stayed in play on a chilly day in April. If he pitches that way in June, light 'em up. I don't want to see that many flyballs let up by any pitcher, especially at US Cellular.

THAT SAID, glad he kept it together and pulled out a W. As much as I doubt Frank's optimism, I do hope that he's right.
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
https://www.phpbb.com/