Chicago Fanatics Message Board
https://mail.chicagofanatics.com/

So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
https://mail.chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=49448		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  Dr. Kenneth Noisewater [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
Let's assume for a moment that this fade into Bolivia continues and the Sox miss the playoffs for the 4th time in 5 years. Is half a decade enough time for the World Series Honeymoon to wear off?

And let's be honest, Ozzie rode a ridiculous run of once-in-a-lifetime pitching performances to a title. Hell, he went an entire series making 3 moves as a manager and 2 of those were to put in a pinch runner.

How long do Sox fans put up with mediocrity before the luster of these guys wears off? Sure, Ozzie is hilarious :roll: and Kenny is a hard-ass who just steals players from other teams :lol: . What do they have to show for it since the beginning of George W's second term?

Their record the past 5 years is basically the same as the Cubs with one less playoff appearance and the Cubs hate everybody, cleaning house and going young.

I mean the Sox did this last year, made a run, got to First Place by the end of July and then faded off into the middle of hthe pack. Maybe it's time to realize that these two guys just got lucky once and can't get it done.
Author:  sjboyd0137 [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
To be honest, I think Kenny will go before Ozzie. Only reason is that Kenny was the one to convince Jerry to take on the crazy contracts last year.
Author:  rogers park bryan [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
Image
Author:  Dr. Kenneth Noisewater [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
I think Ozzie will quit before they'd ever get to consider firing him.
Author:  Krazy Ivan [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
I think Ozzie will quit before they'd ever get to consider firing him.



This.

I also think Kenny has a job until he no longer wants it either. Jerry loves both of these guys...
Author:  Brick [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
No offense Dr. Kenneth Noisewater, but it's hard to take your post seriously when it basically calls a World Series championship lucky.

Unless you are the Yankees who just outspend everyone most World Series titles can be looked at as a bunch of things all working out. After all, if they didn't work out then you likely wouldn't have won and someone else would have had things go there way.
Author:  Darkside [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
What do they have to show for it since the beginning of George W's second term?

A World Series win.

Honestly though, and maybe Frank will back my claim on this, but I've been saying since the beginning of the season that losing Thome was a HUGE mistake. Now that the local scribes and yakkers are on that bandwagon I finally know that I'm not completely full of shit, at least in regards to that particular claim.

Oz should be considered dumbassed for his supposed claims that the team didn't need Thome. Williams was dumb enough to listen to that shit and also completely fucked up huge 7/31. Those offenses are certainly termination-worthy. The WS was long enough ago that we don't need to slurp DNA from these guys.
Author:  sjboyd0137 [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
Darkside wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
What do they have to show for it since the beginning of George W's second term?

A World Series win.

Honestly though, and maybe Frank will back my claim on this, but I've been saying since the beginning of the season that losing Thome was a HUGE mistake. Now that the local scribes and yakkers are on that bandwagon I finally know that I'm not completely full of shit, at least in regards to that particular claim.

Oz should be considered dumbassed for his supposed claims that the team didn't need Thome. Williams was dumb enough to listen to that shit and also completely fucked up huge 7/31. Those offenses are certainly termination-worthy. The WS was long enough ago that we don't need to slurp DNA from these guys.


My thought isn't necessarily Thome in name, but a left handed power bat of some sort.
Author:  Darkside [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
sjboyd0137 wrote:
My thought isn't necessarily Thome in name, but a left handed power bat of some sort.

Who was a better left hand power hitter for 1.5M? I don't know how much you believe in chemistry within a team but he had that going on too.
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
Find me a World Series winner in the last 25 years that hasn't been a bit lucky and hasn't had some guys with career years and/or red hot playoff performances.

You can't.



I don't believe the Sox would have more than 1 or 2 more wins at this point with Thome.
Author:  Dr. Kenneth Noisewater [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
No offense Dr. Kenneth Noisewater, but it's hard to take your post seriously when it basically calls a World Series championship lucky.


Not lucky. They put together a great season and got themselves into a position where they had a dominant run. I was just pouring a little gasoline with that comment. But, the main point was that I don't attribute that particular run to inspired managing by Ozzie when there really was nothing to be done except run those guys out there the way they were pitching. I don't hold it against them, though, they were certainly the best team that year and he managed them to that title.

The point is what have they done since and I'm just curious at what point do White Sox fans put that aside because I don't think they have. I still get a lot of Ozzie is so cute and funny and we love when he says his silly things even though he's on the verge of a second consecutive late-season collapse but, oh, he's great on his TV show.

So, is Ozzie on the hotseat if they lose again? I don't think so. So, why not?
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
I don't attribute that particular run to inspired managing by Ozzie when there really was nothing to be done except run those guys out there the way they were pitching.

Right, but Ozzie left those guys out there. You think Joe Torre leaves his guys out there 4 nights in a row when he's got Rivera in the pen? I don't.

I'm not comparing Jenks to Rivera but sometimes the best moves are the ones you don't make. Cotts and Politte were dominant that year. Mangers that have arms that solid in the pen are likely going to use them. Ozzie goes to the pen instead of letting Garland finish game 3 and maybe the pen blows it. Then the Sox are down 2-1 instead of up a game. That would have changed this drastically.
Author:  Darkside [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
...the main point was that I don't attribute that particular run to inspired managing by Ozzie when there really was nothing to be done except run those guys out there the way they were pitching.

This is your case for keeping Ozzie and letting Kenny go, if one of them had to go, I think.
Kenny hasn't given him the players.
Author:  good dolphin [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Their record the past 5 years is basically the same as the Cubs with one less playoff appearance and the Cubs hate everybody, cleaning house and going young. .


You understand that you are comparing the best 5 year run for the Cubs in the past 50 or so years as an indication that the Sox are bad.

I like what Kenny Williams does. He makes aggressive trades for today. He is not perfect, but he is good.

Ozzie is a slightly above average manager. He neither has a net positive nor negative affect due to his managing style. There are few who really make a difference as managers in MLB, so absent outside influences, there is not need to fire him. Now, the Guillen boys bullshit is an outside influence a team might not find acceptable.
Author:  sjboyd0137 [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
Darkside wrote:
sjboyd0137 wrote:
My thought isn't necessarily Thome in name, but a left handed power bat of some sort.

Who was a better left hand power hitter for 1.5M? I don't know how much you believe in chemistry within a team but he had that going on too.


I think chemistry on a veteran team is overrated. Especially when that team is basically a bunch of mercs and castoffs that my beloved baseball team is (and that's why I love them).

For the value, Thome is the bargin. My only concern is that while his numbers project out to him being the same guy he has been the last few years, how well does he hold up if he's playing 130-140 games as a DH instead of the 100 or so that he will wind up playing this year?

If I were in charge, I would've rather seen them bring back Dye (I know he's not left handed), but I think he would've looked better in the lineup than Kotsay, and if would allow you to balance the power in the lineup a little more. Plus, he can spell Quentin in right, maybe even Pierre in left on occasion.
Author:  good dolphin [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
Frank Coztansa wrote:

I don't believe the Sox would have more than 1 or 2 more wins at this point with Thome.


and how many less would the Twins have...and I think your number is low but not outrageously low
Author:  RFDC [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
It is funny to me how some are jumping on the lucky comments by Dr. Ken instead of dealing with the question at hand.
Author:  Darkside [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
sjboyd0137 wrote:

I think chemistry on a veteran team is overrated.


If I were in charge, I would've rather seen them bring back Dye (I know he's not left handed), but I think he would've looked better in the lineup than Kotsay, and if would allow you to balance the power in the lineup a little more. Plus, he can spell Quentin in right, maybe even Pierre in left on occasion.

I used to disagree about chemistry too until I see a team full of good veteran players playing like shit because of some jerk (Bradley) or because it's hard to concentrate when they're losing (Soriano) and they just don't bother to hustle (Ramirez, Lee) because what's the fuckin point.

I also would have much preferred Dye. But he wasn't willing to fill a role. That's a bullshit way to be.
Author:  Darkside [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
RFDC wrote:
It is funny to me how some are jumping on the lucky comments by Dr. Ken instead of dealing with the question at hand.

I think it's funny how people (like you) are jumping on the jumping on the other comments instead of contributing to the question at hand.
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
Early on Thome might have helped a little. But the first 6 weeks of the season there was so much going wrong on so many levels. In Baltimore, Thome might have helped. The pitching has been bad recently and Thome doesn't pitch.

Thome also can't help if his back is out and he is unavailable. I like Thome, but I don't think he was the one piece that would have the Sox up 3 games at this point.
Author:  RFDC [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
Darkside wrote:
RFDC wrote:
It is funny to me how some are jumping on the lucky comments by Dr. Ken instead of dealing with the question at hand.

I think it's funny how people (like you) are jumping on the jumping on the other comments instead of contributing to the question at hand.


Pretty early in the week for you to have so much sand in the creases, eh?
Author:  rogers park bryan [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
What is your expectation as a fan for a Manager/GM combo keeping their jobs?

Get in the playoffs at a 50% clip?
Author:  Brick [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
I think Ozzie has done a good job. I don't think many people would have done better. His relationship with Kenny seems to have deteriorated though and it may be a case of one or the other leaving.

The case for Kenny Williams can be broken down to one question.
Do you think that a core of Rios, Peavy, Danks, Floyd, Beckham, Alexi, Quentin(?) and an aging Buehrle is good enough to compete for World Series titles for the next few years if a few other moves work out. I know that you could possibly add in a few other players in there but that seems to be the core of the team to me moving forward.

If I could trust Peavy staying healthy, my answer would probably be yes. If I can't and I can't say that Buehrle isn't going to decline I have to say no. Kenny has made some great moves but he's also made some very questionable ones and it seems like he's caught in the "good enough to not get fired, not good enough to be totally secure" zone. I have more faith in him than any other GM in town though besides niche sports played on frozen water.

So I think that if the White Sox miss the playoffs in September this year, then it's playoffs or bust for Ozzie/Kenny next year. If they make the playoffs this year, they probably save their jobs for a while longer. Without a deep playoff run though, a major collapse like the Cubs ends the Kenny Williams era the next time it happens.

If the Sox hadn't had that great stretch of games earlier in the season, it may have been time for them to move on. However, there is still a lot of games to be played.
Author:  sjboyd0137 [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
Darkside wrote:

I also would have much preferred Dye. But he wasn't willing to fill a role. That's a bullshit way to be.


And that's why he's sitting on his ass. When Konerko was talking about this possibly being his last year because of the veteran contract type things (knowing full well he was talking about Dye without saying Dye), I think he is a little different because he seems to be the guy that will fill a role when necessary. I honestly think the Sox will resign him next year with the role being the mentor to the "Stone Hands" Viciedo at first (BTW, Tank is an awful nickname for the guy).
Author:  Darkside [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
RFDC wrote:
Darkside wrote:
RFDC wrote:
It is funny to me how some are jumping on the lucky comments by Dr. Ken instead of dealing with the question at hand.

I think it's funny how people (like you) are jumping on the jumping on the other comments instead of contributing to the question at hand.


Pretty early in the week for you to have so much sand in the creases, eh?

Still nothing to add to the grown up table conversation?
Author:  Dr. Kenneth Noisewater [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
good dolphin wrote:
You understand that you are comparing the best 5 year run for the Cubs in the past 50 or so years as an indication that the Sox are bad.


I only point that out as contrast because even the greatest 5-year stretch of Cubs baseball isn't even good enough for Cubs fans who presumably don't even watch the games so what do they care? The Cubs are getting rid of everybody.

White Sox fans hold their team to a higher standard and demand excellence, so I just figured White Sox nation might be getting tired of averaging 83 wins a year and missing the playoffs by nosediving in August and September.
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
Darkside wrote:
I used to disagree about chemistry too until I see a team full of good veteran players playing like shit because of some jerk (Bradley) or because it's hard to concentrate when they're losing (Soriano) and they just don't bother to hustle (Ramirez, Lee) because what's the fuckin point.

Regardless of the moves Ozzie makes or doesn't make, this is the one thing I think he excels in. He is not afriad to lay into a guy because he dogs it or is acting like a turd (Nick Swisher, Bobby Jenks). Yes these players are professionals but it is up to the manger (and upper management) to kick a guy like Bradley or Aram in the ass from time to time.
Author:  Darkside [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
rogers park bryan wrote:
What is your expectation as a fan for a Manager/GM combo keeping their jobs?

Get in the playoffs at a 50% clip?

Too vague. That's gonna depend on the team. If you were a WS team and you miss the playoffs in 4 of the 5 following years, you gotta look hardcore at management, yes.
Author:  RFDC [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
Darkside wrote:
Still nothing to add to the grown up table conversation?


Well Mr. Adult, if you have paid attention around here you would know that I asked this exact same question not too long ago. It is my opinion that if the Sox miss the playoffs this year then at the very least one of them should be gone, but probably both of them. The WS title can only buy you so much time and 5 years of mediocrity is plenty. It is more time that most other teams are given around here.
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: So when is it time for Ozzie and Kenny to go?
Darkside wrote:
If you were a WS team and you miss the playoffs in 4 of the 5 following years, you gotta look hardcore at management, yes.

The 2006 team won 90 games. The pitching totally fell apart in the 2nd half of that season. Thats tough to put on management. 2007 was bad, and they bounced back in 2008. 2009 was bad, and they are in the hunt here in 2010.


Getting back to the Cubs. They were THE best team in the NL in 2008. Failed to win even one playoff game. Hendry has given out how many bad deals and no trade clauses. Hell, one of the "worst" deals the Sox have is Rios, and Kenny didn't even offer that contract.

Thats why people are more fed up with Hendry than Kenny.
Page 1 of 4 All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
https://www.phpbb.com/