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| OH NO https://mail.chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=60824 |
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| Author: | Walt Williams Neck [ Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | OH NO |
CLEVELAND – According to Chicago White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen and confirmed by team cultural affairs director Jackson Miranda, right field superprospect Dayan Viciedo has re-injured the thumb that was broken in spring training by a Dave Bush pitch. Guillen said on Sunday morning that what he heard was that Viciedo aggravated the injury about a week ago and has been bothered by it since. Viciedo has slumped recently, his OPS falling from the low 900s to .865, and this injury helps explain it. Over 96 games and 411 plate appearances, the Tank has hit 16 homers and driven in 65, in this his breakout offensive season. Viciedo was removed from last night’s Triple-A game vs. Louisville, prompting speculation that he may be on the verge of being called up to the Show. While able to quickly dismiss the prospect of Viciedo’s callup today due to his injury, Guillen spoke at greater length on the prospect before Sunday’s game at the Cleveland Indians. “Are people in Chicago getting tired about talking about Viciedo?,” he asked. “We are going to keep this recording about Viciedo for people in Chicago because sooner or later, they are going to hate Viciedo—at least for a week—and talk about how bad Viciedo is and how crazy we were to bring this guy from Cuba here.” |
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| Author: | badrogue17 [ Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OH NO |
Not nearly as crazy as you are for continuing to trot Adam Dunn out there everyday. |
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| Author: | muswp1 [ Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OH NO |
Well, I agree with Ozzie on something, I think Viciedo is being slightly overrated around here. Is he good, yes, but I don't think he's going to help the team's other issues (Dunn, Rios, stranding runners in scoring position, etc...) simply by showing up. |
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| Author: | badrogue17 [ Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OH NO |
OttoTostado wrote: He has more value, imo, than Quentin No offense there Otto but seeing how he hasnt hit 40 HR's here, its not exactly going out on a limb saying he wont do it somewhere else.
Not that Quetin has a lot of value but maybe you'd get a prospect or two I'd rather see Vicideo in the lineup at this point...not saying he's a savior or anything but it's likely better than what they have now plus if moving someone (like Quentin) results in getting a prospect , all the better i'd be surprised if Quentin went somewhere else and hit 40 HR's. he's decent, but that's about it. |
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| Author: | Rod [ Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OH NO |
Do you think there are ten better outfielders than Quentin? |
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| Author: | Apologist [ Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OH NO |
Easily. |
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| Author: | Rod [ Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OH NO |
Apologist wrote: Easily. Okay, who are they? |
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| Author: | Mr. Belvidere [ Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OH NO |
10 players in the American League? Prob Not. 10 players in MLB? Hmmmmm. Might be interesting. If you put Quentin on the Yankees he'd be an All star with more HRs and RBIs. He's better than Swisher. Offensively anyway. |
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| Author: | Apologist [ Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OH NO |
Off the top of my head, Buatista Hamilton Granderson McCutchen Holliday J Upton Braun Kemp Cargo Bruce Ethier Victorino Stanton Choo Ellsbury Crawford Heyward ------------- Werth Cruz Beltran Markakis Gardner Rasmus All the guys above the line I would unquestionably take before CQ. The guys below are debatable due to age, injury, or some other reason. |
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| Author: | Mr. Belvidere [ Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OH NO |
I did my home work and I was wrong. Better OF is a vague description because Carlos is having a better year than say Carl Crawford but I and probably most people would rather have Crawford. Crawford Ellsbury Cuddyer Adam Jones Granderson Lind Bautista Wells Hunter Ichiro Nelson Cruz Josh Hamilton Thats 12 off the top of my head from the AL. These players are better PLAYERS than CQ. And all but Bautista are way better Outfielders. I still like Carlos but his first year was kind of a fluke. |
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| Author: | Rod [ Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OH NO |
In spite of both of those lists, there's a really good case for Quentin as a top ten outfielder in the game. To suggest the Sox would be lucky to get a couple prospects for him is absurd. Curtis Granderson is the guy who appears to be having the fluke year. Who knows what the deal is with Bautista. Obviously, over the last year and a half he appears to be better than not only Quentin, but also better than Ted Williams and Hank Aaron. Anyway, I'm not going to argue against him. Here are the guys I'd say are better than Quentin: Bautista Kemp Braun Holliday Ellsbury Hamilton McCutchen Anybody else is reaching because when you started making a real objective comparison, you discovered that Quentin is a lot better than you thought he was. Be honest. I made the statement and you thought, "Ridiculous! Of course there are tons of guys better than Quentin." But there really aren't. You found that out when you looked at the numbers. You're a pretty knowledgeable baseball fan, but you're stretching here on guys like Victorino, Crawford, and Ethier. And to suggest guys like Stanton and Heyward are better than Quentin is pure speculation. They certainly haven't proven such a thing. Yeah, they may have more long-term value than Quentin, but I don't think you could call them better right now. |
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| Author: | rogers park bryan [ Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OH NO |
Heyward might be a stretch but Stanton is better than Quentin right now. Ethier is certainly a better all around player. Not sure why thats a stretch. Ill tell you another two that are better than Quentin. Chris Young and Justin Upton and Jay Bruce Quentin is a top 25 outfielder. Thats it. |
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| Author: | SteveSarley [ Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OH NO |
Carlos Quentin! Thanks for stopping by in Chicago on your way to Cooperstown! |
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| Author: | Apologist [ Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OH NO |
I like Quentin on this ballclub. Two of your supposed run producers have done absolutely nothing, and outside of Konerko, there's really nobody else but those 2 in the lineup that can carry the club for weeks at a time. Your suggestion that Quentin is somehow underrated, I can't really address anything other than to make the assertion that I feel I am rating Quentin correctly. He can heat up and mash homers in bunches, with the caveat that he plays half his games in one of the most homer-friendly parks in the game. How good would he be in say, Petco? CQ has had one MVP quality year, but also a bunch of injury-riddled campaigns and is prone to going into slumps. His defense in left was questionable, and he looks absolutely statue-like in right. I also tend to give guys who can play CF a bit of an edge, as they possess tools that players like CQ simply will never have. The only elite-level OF mentioned that you can even argue that CQ is better than defensively is Buatista. I just don't see a Top 10 guy here, if you want to go 15-25 MLB I can feel comfortable with that. |
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| Author: | Rod [ Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OH NO |
rogers park bryan wrote: Heyward might be a stretch but Stanton is better than Quentin right now. Ethier is certainly a better all around player. Not sure why thats a stretch. Ill tell you another two that are better than Quentin. Chris Young and Justin Upton and Jay Bruce Quentin is a top 25 outfielder. Thats it. That's just wrong, Bryan. There's no objective measure that suggests Stanton or Bruce is the player Quentin is. Quentin has an adjusted OPS ten or more points higher than both of those guys while playing in what is universally considered a tougher league right now. If you want to say Upton is similar, okay. Chris Young isn't even in the discussion. He just can't compare to Quentin offensively. Bottom line is no one has listed ten outfielders that are definitively better than Quentin. The argument against him is being supported with "I don't think sos" rather than facts. |
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| Author: | Rod [ Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OH NO |
Apologist wrote: I also tend to give guys who can play CF a bit of an edge, as they possess tools that players like CQ simply will never have. I agree. But there are precious few of them that have close to Quentin's offensive skills and even being Devon White isn't good enough to make up the difference. |
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| Author: | rogers park bryan [ Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OH NO |
Joe are you talking strictly with the bat and strictly this year? Seems like it Because Upton and Young are better all around players. And if you look at the three year numbers its even more evident As much as you discount the stolen base stealing 28 at an 80% clip, like Young did last year, helps the team offensively And are any of these guys prone to LOOOOOOOONG slumps like Quentin? To say nothing of the fact that he's prone to stupidity (broken hand) You say we havent definitely proved it. Well you certainly havent proved he IS a top ten OF. If you were drafting a team for the rest of this season, would Q really be in your top 10 of's? |
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| Author: | Rod [ Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OH NO |
rogers park bryan wrote: If you were drafting a team for the rest of this season, would Q really be in your top 10 of's? Easily. Slightly better defense on an outfield corner cannot make up for 10-15 points of OPS+. It just can't. If you had an elite centerfielder, that's something that must be considered. I've granted you Kemp and McCutchen. I just don't think Young is that kind of player although he has improved over the last two seasons. You want Upton? I'll give him to you. There's just not ten better outfielders than Quentin. |
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| Author: | rogers park bryan [ Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OH NO |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: rogers park bryan wrote: If you were drafting a team for the rest of this season, would Q really be in your top 10 of's? Easily. Slightly better defense on an outfield corner cannot make up for 10-15 points of OPS+. It just can't. If you had an elite centerfielder, that's something that must be considered. I've granted you Kemp and McCutchen. I just don't think Young is that kind of player although he has improved over the last two seasons. You want Upton? I'll give him to you. There's just not ten better outfielders than Quentin. Of course I want Upton. I want Bruce (left handed) Thats 7 you gave and one you granted. Then there's Granderson and Adam Jones. So Granderson gets penalized for having a great year (as players in their second year as a Yankee are prone to do?) I still dont know if were judging on just this year or career. Going forward all the players apologist listed are better and so is Upton and likely Stanton and Bruce. I guess we'll disagree. And your idea of "slightly better" defense is pretty liberal. I would probably rank Quentin in the high teens to low 20's. So were basically arguing over 5 spots. Id be willing to bet that out of Bruce, Stanton, Upton, Young, and Bruce at least 3 of them will outproduce Quentin from this day forward til the end of the year. That would put him out of the top ten right? |
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| Author: | Rod [ Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: OH NO |
We're judging by right now. Let's call it over the next 200 games. Jay Bruce isn't really close to the offensive player Quentin is. I don't care if he holds the bat with his teeth. Stanton may well improve, but he hasn't yet shown that he's superior to Quentin. As I said, Upton and Quentin are similar players. I don't think it's reasonable to expect a well-established guy like Granderson to keep playing at a level he never has before. To me he looks like a guy having his best year. Adam Jones has a 102 adjusted OPS over pretty much the same span in which Quentin has delivered a 118 (and that includes a year Quentin played with a pin in his wrist). I know OPS+ isn't the be all, end-all stat but it's as good as anything for comparing offensive players in the same league at the same time. The difference between Dwight Evans and Adam Dunn in right field probably isn't worth 10 points of OPS+. That's what I mean by "slightly". |
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