Only in HOOTERVILLE (thanks Bob) would a pitching coach be such a firestorm. At what point is the hassle not worth it anymore?

When they start pitching like the Cubs.

White Sox pitching as a whole has been average under Coop

I'm pretty sure that isn't really the case by whatever objective measure you want to use.

White Sox MLB ranking in defensive independent ERA under cooper

02: 12th
03: 12th
04: 17th
05: 2nd
06: 22nd
07: 24th
08: 16th
09: 7th
10: 25th
11: 30th (last)



Average ranking: 16.7

Defense independent ERA???? You've got to do better than that.

That's the thing about stats. They can be spun anyway anyone wants. I suppose DIPS is attempting (and failing, I would suggest) to address only those things a pitcher can "control". There are so many holes in this thought process I could author a Sinicalyptic treatise. But you already know that, so there isn't any need for me to do so.

Let's look at things Cooper might have some control over. (Obviously the talent level of his charges isn't one of those things.) For example, how do the Sox stack up in pitcher's days on the disabled list during Cooper's tenure?

White Sox pitching as a whole has been average under Coop

LAME PICTURE REFERENCE TO ONE SEASON 6 YEARS AGO AS IF IT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING

What are you talking about?

You asked for an objective measurement. Would you prefer Good Ol' ERA?

Because the results are largely the same.


What would you use? And please get DAYS on the DL shit outta here. Way too many variables there to credit the pitching coach.


Are you saying TEAM ERA is not a good way to judge a pitching cocah?

and if so, what would you use?

You really think the White Sox have been especially good in the pitching department since 02?

Well, first of all, I don't think days on the DL has anymore variables than any other statistic. The fact is the White Sox pitchers have been healthy over the course of ten seasons under Don Cooper to such a degree that it defies luck.

Anyway, why would ERA (the old-fashioned type you sneer at or your obviously favored defense independent type) be a proper analytic to use when some teams play half their games in parks that are radically more hitter-freindly than others?

I would look at things like starter's workloads, bullpen effectiveness, etc.

LAME PICTURE REFERENCE TO ONE SEASON 6 YEARS AGO AS IF IT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING

Certainly better than average.

For example, how do the Sox stack up in pitcher's days on the disabled list during Cooper's tenure?

Weak

Answer- not very many.

And if you take away Peavy and a freak line drive off the head of Humber, it would be miniscule compared to all other MLB teams.

[I agree with Orr, overall they have been better than just average for the most part under Cooper. In '07 the bullpen was awful and I would say that is more on Kenny. This year the pitching was pretty bad at times. In 2006 they were not very good, but they also scored a ton of runs and were able to win games 12-8, 10-6, etc. Doesn't help the ol' ERA much but still can rack up the W's.

Also, its pretty clear that Ozzie did a lot of dumb things with the bullpen which further skewed the ERA over most of Cooper's time.

Yeah if you just take away all the injuries they've been very healthy

Weak trolling is that half the threads in this section are started by Cub fans and every single one is slanted. It's all the same thing: Kenny sucks, JR sucks, Coop sucks, Farm system sucks, Hawks annoying, etc. There is no objective analysis or debate. Just the same ol' well my team has sucked forever so let me shit on yours.

Peavy, who was hurt when they got him is the big one. Other than that, you will not find very many DL stints by a Sox pitcher in the last 8-10 years. Look it up. Very very very few compared to other teams.

Well than you need to go into those threads.

Right now we are currently discussing, exchanging, and debating the merits of the actual numbers

Pretty much the textbook definition of "Objective analysis"


Weak.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=12248