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| Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? https://mail.chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=73901 |
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| Author: | Rod [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
Pythagoras says yes. |
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| Author: | RFDC [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
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| Author: | Terry's Peeps [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
Record says no. |
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| Author: | Rod [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
Terry's Peeps wrote: Record says no. Exactly, which is why I raised the topic. How can it be that the conventional wisdom in judging baseball players and their efforts is to simply ignore the "when" or "how" of the game and examine the cold, hard numbers with little, if any, regard to context, i.e. RBI is a useless stat, and yet we can easily turn around and dismiss the fact that when all those "important" statistics are considered, it is clear the 2012 White Sox were a superior team to the 2012 Tigers and luck just caused the numbers to fall in the wrong places? |
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| Author: | Terry's Peeps [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
RBI is dismissed as a stat by some people (like your favourite radio host) not because it's useless, but because it doesn't directly measure a player's performance. Runs and RBI are out of a player's control. They are dependent on the hitters before and after said player respectively. |
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| Author: | Hatchetman [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
I suppose the argument could be made, that yes they were. However, they choked like a minature poodle with a jagged KFC bone lodged in its throat. |
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| Author: | Rod [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
Terry's Peeps wrote: RBI is dismissed as a stat by some people (like your favourite radio host) not because it's useless, but because it doesn't directly measure a player's performance. Runs and RBI are out of a player's control. They are dependent on the hitters before and after said player respectively. But it's more than just that, Peeps. It's about one's viewpoint of the game. If a guy gets a base hit to win a game, some people consider that "clutch." (I'm sure you're aware that in a recent thread we had an extensive discussion of "choking" which is simply the opposite of "clutch.") The conventional wisdom, however, is that the hit wasn't "clutch" at all, it was merely one of the hits that player was going to get based upon his ability and the fact that it fell in a particular place is incidental. WAR doesn't put less weight on a grand slam that occurred in the last inning of a game that was being lost 10-0 that made it 10-4 than it does a game-winning walk-off to clinch the division. Every number we have suggests the 2012 White Sox were a better team than the 2012 Tigers. The ultimate result was just a matter of luck, wasn't it? From discussions I've had with you in the past, I know you believe Jake Peavy had a better 2012 season than Barry Zito. If we extrapolate that out to an entire team, you would have to say the Sox were better than Detroit this year. Isn't that correct? |
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| Author: | RFDC [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
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| Author: | Terry's Peeps [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
RFDC wrote: I now change my mind. They didn't choke. |
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| Author: | Terry's Peeps [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Terry's Peeps wrote: RBI is dismissed as a stat by some people (like your favourite radio host) not because it's useless, but because it doesn't directly measure a player's performance. Runs and RBI are out of a player's control. They are dependent on the hitters before and after said player respectively. But it's more than just that, Peeps. It's about one's viewpoint of the game. If a guy gets a base hit to win a game, some people consider that "clutch." (I'm sure you're aware that in a recent thread we had an extensive discussion of "choking" which is simply the opposite of "clutch.") The conventional wisdom, however, is that the hit wasn't "clutch" at all, it was merely one of the hits that player was going to get based upon his ability and the fact that it fell in a particular place is incidental. WAR doesn't put less weight on a grand slam that occurred in the last inning of a game that was being lost 10-0 that made it 10-4 than it does a game-winning walk-off to clinch the division. Every number we have suggests the 2012 White Sox were a better team than the 2012 Tigers. The ultimate result was just a matter of luck, wasn't it? From discussions I've had with you in the past, I know you believe Jake Peavy had a better 2012 season than Barry Zito. If we extrapolate that out to an entire team, you would have to say the Sox were better than Detroit this year. Isn't that correct? It's not all-or-nothing for me. Stats don't tell the complete story, just like "I know what my eyes tell me" doesn't tell the complete story. I use both to judge. As far as the 2012 Sox, I guess you could argue that they were unfortunate. |
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| Author: | Rod [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
Terry's Peeps wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Terry's Peeps wrote: RBI is dismissed as a stat by some people (like your favourite radio host) not because it's useless, but because it doesn't directly measure a player's performance. Runs and RBI are out of a player's control. They are dependent on the hitters before and after said player respectively. But it's more than just that, Peeps. It's about one's viewpoint of the game. If a guy gets a base hit to win a game, some people consider that "clutch." (I'm sure you're aware that in a recent thread we had an extensive discussion of "choking" which is simply the opposite of "clutch.") The conventional wisdom, however, is that the hit wasn't "clutch" at all, it was merely one of the hits that player was going to get based upon his ability and the fact that it fell in a particular place is incidental. WAR doesn't put less weight on a grand slam that occurred in the last inning of a game that was being lost 10-0 that made it 10-4 than it does a game-winning walk-off to clinch the division. Every number we have suggests the 2012 White Sox were a better team than the 2012 Tigers. The ultimate result was just a matter of luck, wasn't it? From discussions I've had with you in the past, I know you believe Jake Peavy had a better 2012 season than Barry Zito. If we extrapolate that out to an entire team, you would have to say the Sox were better than Detroit this year. Isn't that correct? It's not all-or-nothing for me. Stats don't tell the complete story, just like "I know what my eyes tell me" doesn't tell the complete story. I use both to judge. As far as the 2012 Sox, I guess you could argue that they were unfortunate. That's fair. I just find it interesting how people can be so sure of something that seems so opposed to their views on related matters. I may be guilty myself on occasion. I don't think the 2012 Sox were better than the Tigers. The object isn't to have a greater overall run differential. It's to win more games. But I'm also not sure I believe that players "rise to the occasion" or "come through in the clutch" enough for it to make any significant difference. And I don't think guys that bat 500 times a season and make millions for doing it feel pressure and "choke." I can see how the fan might believe that stuff though. His experience is very far away from the experience of the player and that's part of the reason one guy is in the stands and the other is on the field. I'd be pretty nervous going to the moon. I might "choke" and blow the capsule up. But I'm sure for Jim Lovell, it's just another day flying a spaceship. |
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| Author: | Frank Coztansa [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
I don't really care what a computer tells me. I think they have a place in the game and in building a team, but they don't tell the entire story at all. The Sox did not win the division and it doesn't matter what any computer or formula spits out, on the field the team failed at the end and were a second place ballclub. |
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| Author: | Apologist [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
Is this an indictment of run differential? or "clutch"? Or stats in general? |
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| Author: | Gloopan Kuratz [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
I'm not worried about the Tigers. |
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| Author: | Frank Coztansa [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
Gloopan Kuratz wrote: I'm not worried about the Tigers. And I will say again, the Sox lost more than the Tigers won.
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| Author: | Rod [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
Apologist wrote: Is this an indictment of run differential? or "clutch"? Or stats in general? It's really just a discussion on how the game is viewed. You can't indict stats. Stats are facts. It's the conclusions we sometimes draw from them that are questionable. |
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| Author: | rogers park bryan [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Pythagoras says yes. Its just another number that translates well to predicting future success in teams a good portion of the time. |
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| Author: | Dr. Kenneth Noisewater [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Pythagoras says yes. Then why the hell didn't Pythagoras buy a ticket and drag his ass out to a game or two? |
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| Author: | Frank Coztansa [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
Because you can't get a good gyro at the Cell. |
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| Author: | Rod [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
Frank Coztansa wrote: Because you can't get a good gyro at the Cell. That reminds me of the time that my buddy Jimmy and I were racing our colts down at the Logan County Fair in Lincoln, Illinois. After the races we went over to the midway to get something to eat. There was a stand that said "Greek Gyros" on the side and it was being manned by a couple of the local yokels. Since Jimmy is fluent in Greek, I suggested he place his order in Greek. So he went up there and said some shit and the kid got this perplexed look on his face and Jimmy just kept talking and the kid kept saying "huh?, huh?, huh?" Finally the other guy comes over and looks at his partner and says, "I thank he wonts a Ji-ros." 
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| Author: | cpguy [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
Ultimately, the only numbers that matter to a team are wins and losses and are the wins sufficient enough to give said team the opportunity to compete in the post season. The Tigers won more than the Sox and are thus competing in the post season. End of story. |
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| Author: | Jaw Breaker [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
Quote: And I don't think guys that bat 500 times a season and make millions for doing it feel pressure and "choke." I don't agree with that. There are many successful entertainers who still get a degree of stage fright when performing. Do you think a pitcher trying to get the 27th out of a no-hitter has the same mindset as when he took the mound in the 4th inning? |
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| Author: | donspiracy [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
No, in a lot of ways. In the standings the Sox were 3 games worse. Pick a dumb loss out of June, July, and August and the difference is made up. The Tigers play in a larger ballpark, less conducive to home runs. The Tigers had a better bullpen. It does suck that the Sox couldn't make it to the finish line, I don't blame one individual player or the manager. Does Smoky Leland make the Sox an 89 win team and the division winner? Maybe. The Sox had the 8th best record in the AL. I feel worse for the Rays and Angels who had better records, and did not make the playoffs. The only reason the Sox were in contention so late in the year is the crummy division they happen to reside in. |
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| Author: | Rod [ Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
Jaw Breaker wrote: Quote: And I don't think guys that bat 500 times a season and make millions for doing it feel pressure and "choke." I don't agree with that. There are many successful entertainers who still get a degree of stage fright when performing. Do you think a pitcher trying to get the 27th out of a no-hitter has the same mindset as when he took the mound in the 4th inning? No, but that's putting a really fine point on a specific situation. |
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| Author: | bigfan [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Pythagoras says yes. Who does he play for? |
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| Author: | Country Bumpkin [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
Not at all. The 2012 White Sox had yet another disappointing season that ultimately saw them on the outside looking in, just like every season since 2005 barring an anomaly in 2008. Tigers will be better than the Sox next year too. 2013 slogan....White Sox Baseball, just replay last year. |
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| Author: | Terry's Peeps [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
Country Bumpkin wrote: Not at all. The 2012 White Sox had yet another disappointing season that ultimately saw them on the outside looking in, just like every season since 2005 barring an anomaly in 2008. Tigers will be better than the Sox next year too. 2013 slogan....White Sox Baseball, just replay last year. You better cheer the fuck up by February. |
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| Author: | Country Bumpkin [ Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
Terry's Peeps wrote: Country Bumpkin wrote: Not at all. The 2012 White Sox had yet another disappointing season that ultimately saw them on the outside looking in, just like every season since 2005 barring an anomaly in 2008. Tigers will be better than the Sox next year too. 2013 slogan....White Sox Baseball, just replay last year. You better cheer the fuck up by February.
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| Author: | good dolphin [ Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
Country Bumpkin wrote: Not at all. The 2012 White Sox had yet another disappointing season that ultimately saw them on the outside looking in, just like every season since 2005 barring an anomaly in 2008. Tigers will be better than the Sox next year too. 2013 slogan....White Sox Baseball, just replay last year. These Tigers will be representing the AL in the World Series...and then adding Victor Martinez to the lineup next year. Ultimately, the success of that team in the future is whether Scherzer and Porcello have finally found it or their second halves were an anomoly. |
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| Author: | Frank Coztansa [ Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Were the White Sox better than the Tigers this season? |
good dolphin wrote: These Tigers will be representing the AL in the World Series No they won't.
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