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Do Ex Sox players matter?
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Author:  bigfan [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Do Ex Sox players matter?
When Sandberg was in line for a managerial promotion, I heard nothing but crap from Sox fans about the loveable Cubs and how foolish it was to make a guy the manager because he was a Cub all time great. Disregarding the fact the guy had served his time in the minors, was a guy who wanted the job, was willing to do whatever was asked of him for the job.

Then Robin is named manager of the Sox out of complete nowhere, even a surprise to him.

This issue then died?

Meanwhile Jerry is trying to create these memories of some great history that, from what I see, doesnt matter to the fans. At the same time possibly compromising the level of coaching?

Harold Baines? The guy barely speaks and to date, I cant remember a Sox player ever saying what a great coach this guy is? Yet, he has been there for 10+ years?

Daryl Boston? Kennys best buddy,

Even bringing in Thome and Thigpen now? Even the Bullpen coach, Mark Salas has ties when he played for a year?

Fisk as amabassador? Keeping him around after the Sox pissing on the guy, then the DUI! Not just a stop and blow DUI, but actual running across lanes, passed out behind the wheel, with the bottle in the cornfield DUI.

Big Frank, just looks like a guy who doesnt want to be there, I know he doesnt coach, but he is there due to Jerry as they had another falling out.

Nothing wrong with the Ambassadors walking around, taking pictures, smiling, saying hello, signing autographs, that kind of stuff is for the fans. Even going on to the field and talking to the players.

So, does all this "Putting the Band Back Together" matter to a Sox fan? Is it nearly as important as the Sox think it is to the fans?
Author:  Kirkwood [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
Biggie, putting the band together earned the Sox a World Series in 2005. Jerry 1 Biggie 0.
Author:  bigfan [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
Kirkwood wrote:
Biggie, putting the band together earned the Sox a World Series in 2005. Jerry 1 Biggie 0.


So I guess it matters to you?

Also, if you are referring to Ozzie, he also served his tenure under some really good managers for 8 years. He didnt just get a call because he was an ex Sox player. He was qualified, no matter which team he played for.
Author:  Rod [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
I think it's a positive thing to have your former players feel as if they are part of a family rather than resenting the team where they spent most of their years after they retire. And since a baseball manager has little to no effect on performance, why not hire your own guys instead of someone else's?
Author:  Kirkwood [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
bigfan wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
Biggie, putting the band together earned the Sox a World Series in 2005. Jerry 1 Biggie 0.


So I guess it matters to you?

Also, if you are referring to Ozzie, he also served his tenure under some really good managers for 8 years. He didnt just get a call because he was an ex Sox player. He was qualified, no matter which team he played for.

No. The only coach which has a real effect is pitching coach. And Jerry has one of the best. The other coaches don't really matter as much and the Sox have had success with their hiring process.
Author:  Rod [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
Kirkwood wrote:
bigfan wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
Biggie, putting the band together earned the Sox a World Series in 2005. Jerry 1 Biggie 0.


So I guess it matters to you?

Also, if you are referring to Ozzie, he also served his tenure under some really good managers for 8 years. He didnt just get a call because he was an ex Sox player. He was qualified, no matter which team he played for.

No. The only coach which has a real effect is pitching coach. And Jerry has one of the best. The other coaches don't really matter as much and the Sox have had success with their hiring process.


I'd let the shortstop make the batting order and save the money on a manager.
Author:  Kirkwood [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
bigfan wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
Biggie, putting the band together earned the Sox a World Series in 2005. Jerry 1 Biggie 0.


So I guess it matters to you?

Also, if you are referring to Ozzie, he also served his tenure under some really good managers for 8 years. He didnt just get a call because he was an ex Sox player. He was qualified, no matter which team he played for.

No. The only coach which has a real effect is pitching coach. And Jerry has one of the best. The other coaches don't really matter as much and the Sox have had success with their hiring process.


I'd let the shortstop make the batting order and save the money on a manager.

A SABRmetrician would agree with you. :lol:
Author:  Curious Hair [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
I think it's a positive thing to have your former players feel as if they are part of a family rather than resenting the team where they spent most of their years after they retire. And since a baseball manager has little to no effect on performance, why not hire your own guys instead of someone else's?

I agree with the sentiment of establishing a family, but it becomes a problem when guys start getting jobs without merit. Look at the Blackhawks, where Denis Savard was allowed to be an assistant coach and eventually a head coach for something like ten years because he was loyal. Great player, great guy, but staying on a coaching staff through at least five head coaches and years upon years in the cellar is unheard of. Or Dale Tallon being allowed to fail at his job because he was Dale Tallon. And Bob Pulford. Ironically, all this went down as Hull and Mikita were alienated from the organization. McDonough had the right idea when he purged those guys from leadership positions and demoted Savard to vice-president of showing up at Buffalo Wild Wings. I think everyone agrees that was the best plan. Two cups.

I will note that there were a fair deal of people here, one in particular, who made sure to hammer over and over that "sorry, Sandberg can't get the job just for being a Cub. He should be a base coach in the majors first, HE HAS NO MAJOR LEAGUE EXPERIENCE, I'M NOT MAKING THIS UP, HONEST" but were in selachian silence when Robin Ventura got the Sox job without any organized baseball experience. No big deal
Author:  veganfan21 [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
Curious Hair wrote:

I will note that there were a fair deal of people here, one in particular, who made sure to hammer over and over that "sorry, Sandberg can't get the job just for being a Cub. He should be a base coach in the majors first, HE HAS NO MAJOR LEAGUE EXPERIENCE, I'M NOT MAKING THIS UP, HONEST" but were in selachian silence when Robin Ventura got the Sox job without any organized baseball experience. No big deal


Yeah, that must have sucked for Sandberg. Jason Kidd's hire in the NBA reminds me of the Ventura-Sandberg comparison, with Patrick Ewing - now an experienced assistant coach with head coach ambitions - not even getting an interview.

I also agree with your larger point about hiring based on merit, but do we have any indications that these ex-Sox employees are unfit for the jobs they now hold? I really don't know, but it would be extremely negligent for them to be not subject to the same performance criteria that govern the other employees. Perhaps this is the same reason Jordan's team is an absolute shambles; as soon as he landed in Charlotte he began hiring all his old pals to help him run the team, and it's no surprise that they've probably been the worst team in the league ever since he took over.
Author:  Rod [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
A hockey coach is more important than a baseball manager, isn't he? a football coach sure as hell is and a college basketball coach as well. An NBA coach? Maybe not. I know they run a ton of stuff but players seem to get them fired on a whim. Then they bring in a guy who runs what the star wants.
Author:  veganfan21 [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
A hockey coach is more important than a baseball manager, isn't he? a football coach sure as hell is and a college basketball coach as well. An NBA coach? Maybe not. I know they run a ton of stuff but players seem to get them fired on a whim. Then they bring in a guy who runs what the star wants.


The only disagreement I have here re: NBA is you need a coach who can get everyone on the same page. Talented teams can fracture over guys pursuing personal agendas, and that generally happens because the coaching staff has failed to get everyone to buy into the system. That's what separated PJ from the rest of the league for the most part.
Author:  Rod [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
veganfan21 wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
A hockey coach is more important than a baseball manager, isn't he? a football coach sure as hell is and a college basketball coach as well. An NBA coach? Maybe not. I know they run a ton of stuff but players seem to get them fired on a whim. Then they bring in a guy who runs what the star wants.


The only disagreement I have here re: NBA is you need a coach who can get everyone on the same page. Talented teams can fracture over guys pursuing personal agendas, and that generally happens because the coaching staff has failed to get everyone to buy into the system. That's what separated PJ from the rest of the league for the most part.


I agree. But there's also a value to a baseball manager that can keep all his guys pulling on the same rope. That's a personality thing and difficult to quantify. But I don't think one needs any special "baseball" or "basketball" qualifications for that. A leader is a leader. I bet Sherman could coach an NBA champion. And then he'd order them to burn down the fuckin' Omni.
Author:  veganfan21 [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:

I agree. But there's also a value to a baseball manager that can keep all his guys pulling on the same rope. That's a personality thing and difficult to quantify. But I don't think one needs any special "baseball" or "basketball" qualifications for that. A leader is a leader. I bet Sherman could coach an NBA champion. And then he'd order them to burn down the fuckin' Omni.


Sure, I can see that. I don't know enough about each sport to say whether a coach in one sport is more important than other coaches. Wouldn't a manager be important for not only the leadership qualities you mentioned, but for issues like game strategy, looking out for the long-term health interests of the club, deciding how you're going to stock the bench, etc.? Is he as unimportant as some posters are implying?
Author:  Urlacher's missing neck [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
Just wait until they hire ol kenny patterson as a bullpen coach. Lets just say coop would be considered a lightweight between the 2.
Author:  Hatchetman [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
Of course nobody gives a shit. It only matters to JR. He knows who he can control and who he can't.
Author:  bigfan [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
Hatchetman wrote:
Of course nobody gives a shit. It only matters to JR. He knows who he can control and who he can't.


Thank you for the answer to the question.

Curious Hair did address the vast number of people (Most Sox fans) who ripped the possibility of Sandberg getting a job, then where nowhere to be found when Ventura was hired.

I agree personality has a lot to do with managing, but I dont think you can discount the manager to almost nill as many would say.

Over 162 games a manager's effect is no doubt lessened, but the importance of a manager is raised for a playoff run.

I think Joe Madden would disagree with the thought though. While he has had talent there, the guys who have left that are not close to the level they played with TB is a really big # and someone gets the credit for that while they are in TB.
Author:  Terry's Peeps [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
If the "most Sox fans were against Sandberg getting hired" line gets taken as fact, then JORR's "most Cubs fans expect every prospect to be superstars" line does as well.

As for bigfan's query, no one I know cares about former players being on the coaching staff.
Author:  bigfan [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
Terry's Peeps wrote:
If the "most Sox fans were against Sandberg getting hired" line gets taken as fact, then JORR's "most Cubs fans expect every prospect to be superstars" line does as well.

As for bigfan's query, no one I know cares about former players being on the coaching staff.



Maybe some of the worst reasoning I have ever seen, but OK, go with it.

Something that can be proven by reading posts, you can also see that Curious Hair just referenced it as something that did occur, then means that if that is true then something JORR stated as a matter of opinion now must be true?

Not sure if the word SUPERSTAR is what Cub fans are expecting, but they are expecting very good major league players from the highly touted minor league players that have been the focus of an organization that is no longer just there to make money, but has put a huge emphasis on developing ML players.
Author:  Terry's Peeps [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
You and Curious Hair took something maybe a few people said about Sandberg and attributed it to "most Sox fans".

JORR took something maybe a few people said about Castro, Rizzo, etc. and attributed it to "most Cubs fans".

Perfectly apt comparison.
Author:  Kirkwood [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
Terry's Peeps wrote:
You and Curious Hair took something maybe a few people said about Sandberg and attributed it to "most Sox fans".

JORR took something maybe a few people said about Castro, Rizzo, etc. and attributed it to "most Cubs fans".

Perfectly apt comparison.

Logic be damned. Stay out of Trolling White Sox Fans business!
Author:  Terry's Peeps [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
Kirkwood wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
You and Curious Hair took something maybe a few people said about Sandberg and attributed it to "most Sox fans".

JORR took something maybe a few people said about Castro, Rizzo, etc. and attributed it to "most Cubs fans".

Perfectly apt comparison.

Logic be damned. Stay out of Trolling White Sox Fans business!


I really should know better.

I'm sorry.
Author:  Tall Midget [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
I would love, Love, LOVE it if the SOX brought back Mike Caruso as the infield coach and Ron Karkovice as the team's special skin consultant.

All of this matters very Deeply to Me!
Author:  bigfan [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
Terry's Peeps wrote:
You and Curious Hair took something maybe a few people said about Sandberg and attributed it to "most Sox fans".

JORR took something maybe a few people said about Castro, Rizzo, etc. and attributed it to "most Cubs fans".

Perfectly apt comparison.

I dont anyone ever thought Castro was going to be anything, other than maybe the scout who signed him. Castro is a product of signing numbers of guys and some of the eventually become big leaugers, he may have done it faster than others, thus the expectation he will continue to improve is placed upon him. He of coursed might not, but then again he was never a top prospect when signed.

Rizzo does come along with expectations because of the premium placed on his acquisition and the time that Theo and Jed have invested in the guy, he does need to become a 30 HR 100 RBI guy on a constant basis.

Expectations are not a bad thing and one thing the Sox could learn is that selling that hope is a good thing. It creates Buzz and a constant fan base. You know what doesnt create a fan base, a bunch of people in a front of office calling sports media, umpires and sometimes even fans IDIOTS.

Driving to the gym today Buddy Bell on with Rongey "Keith Law and all those other IDIOTS dont know what they are talking about"
Author:  bigfan [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
Tall Midget wrote:
I would love, Love, LOVE it if the SOX brought back Mike Caruso as the infield coach and Ron Karkovice as the team's special skin consultant.

All of this matters very Deeply to Me!


One guy who they basically just let hang around because he so deerly wants to is Ron Kittle. So why not actually pay the guy to be part of the organization? They pay Fisk and that guy could give a shit if they ever called him again?
Author:  Terry's Peeps [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
bigfan wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
You and Curious Hair took something maybe a few people said about Sandberg and attributed it to "most Sox fans".

JORR took something maybe a few people said about Castro, Rizzo, etc. and attributed it to "most Cubs fans".

Perfectly apt comparison.

I dont anyone ever thought Castro was going to be anything, other than maybe the scout who signed him. Castro is a product of signing numbers of guys and some of the eventually become big leaugers, he may have done it faster than others, thus the expectation he will continue to improve is placed upon him. He of coursed might not, but then again he was never a top prospect when signed.

Rizzo does come along with expectations because of the premium placed on his acquisition and the time that Theo and Jed have invested in the guy, he does need to become a 30 HR 100 RBI guy on a constant basis.

Expectations are not a bad thing and one thing the Sox could learn is that selling that hope is a good thing. It creates Buzz and a constant fan base. You know what doesnt create a fan base, a bunch of people in a front of office calling sports media, umpires and sometimes even fans IDIOTS.

Driving to the gym today Buddy Bell on with Rongey "Keith Law and all those other IDIOTS dont know what they are talking about"

The Kids Can Play slogan tried to sell hope for the future.

Every Cub fan mocked it as bush league and dumb in the 3rd largest market.
Author:  bigfan [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
Yeah its a risk.

You say the Kids can play and they can't, you are correct, it's gonna bust out.
Author:  Tall Midget [ Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
bigfan wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
I would love, Love, LOVE it if the SOX brought back Mike Caruso as the infield coach and Ron Karkovice as the team's special skin consultant.

All of this matters very Deeply to Me!


One guy who they basically just let hang around because he so deerly wants to is Ron Kittle. So why not actually pay the guy to be part of the organization? They pay Fisk and that guy could give a shit if they ever called him again?


I have a strong suspicion that Kenny and Kittle don't get along.
Author:  Elmhurst Steve [ Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
Do current Sox players matter??
Author:  Rod [ Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
Elmhurst Steve wrote:
Do current Sox players matter??


Less than current Cardinal players but more than current Cub minor leaguers.
Author:  badrogue17 [ Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Do Ex Sox players matter?
Tall Midget wrote:
bigfan wrote:
Tall Midget wrote:
I would love, Love, LOVE it if the SOX brought back Mike Caruso as the infield coach and Ron Karkovice as the team's special skin consultant.

All of this matters very Deeply to Me!


One guy who they basically just let hang around because he so deerly wants to is Ron Kittle. So why not actually pay the guy to be part of the organization? They pay Fisk and that guy could give a shit if they ever called him again?


I have a strong suspicion that Kenny and Kittle don't get along.

Yeah why keep a guy around who is personable, fans love him, had one of the greatest rookie years ever and would love to do it instead of a surly , corn field driving piece of shit.
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