Chicago Fanatics Message Board
https://mail.chicagofanatics.com/

8 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 0 Runs 14k... no win
https://mail.chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=94566		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Darkside [ Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  8 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 0 Runs 14k... no win
Run support DOES. NOT. MATTER.
Author:  redskingreg [ Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 8 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 0 Runs 14k... no win
JORR agrees. Should have given up fewer runs.
Author:  jimmypasta [ Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 8 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 0 Runs 14k... no win
I tuned in. Sale is unreal,a fantastic pitcher. The Sox would have trouble beating a good AAA team with that lineup. I thought they would be a lot better than this but 3 glaring offensive holes in that lineup and the rest of the lineup under performing.
Author:  bigfan [ Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 8 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 0 Runs 14k... no win
Can't wait for next spring when Sale doesn't report over contract dispute.

Which is the downside for the club when they do these early deals.

Yes, we all know the 23 year old kid who never had anything signs the deal for 70 MILL, but just like Big Frank....when they see how underpaid they are, they get pissed off.

Sox have Sale under control till he is 30
Author:  Rod [ Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 8 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 0 Runs 14k... no win
He didn't get a loss. Percentages seem difficult for some to understand.

If you were looking at it from Colby Lewis' perspective, I guess you could complain about a lack of "run support" too, but that would be ignoring the way Sale pitched, wouldn't it?
Author:  Hatchetman [ Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 8 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 0 Runs 14k... no win
you forgot the zero walks and a terrific defensive play to save the big oaf from an error.
Author:  Darkside [ Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 8 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 0 Runs 14k... no win
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
He didn't get a loss. Percentages seem difficult for some to understand.

If you were looking at it from Colby Lewis' perspective, I guess you could complain about a lack of "run support" too, but that would be ignoring the way Sale pitched, wouldn't it?

No one said Sale got the less.
Lewis got the win.
Did Lewis outpitch Sale yesterday for the win? You would say the starting pitcher has to outpitch the other.
Author:  IMU [ Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 8 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 0 Runs 14k... no win
Colby Lewis outpitched Chris Sale. Period.

Colby Lewis is a winner. Chris Sale is not.
Author:  billypootons [ Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 8 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 0 Runs 14k... no win
maybe sale should bat for himself
Author:  conns7901 [ Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 8 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 0 Runs 14k... no win
bigfan wrote:
Can't wait for next spring when Sale doesn't report over contract dispute.

Which is the downside for the club when they do these early deals.

Yes, we all know the 23 year old kid who never had anything signs the deal for 70 MILL, but just like Big Frank....when they see how underpaid they are, they get pissed off.

Sox have Sale under control till he is 30


Sale's deal is going to look Scottie Pippen bad real soon.
Author:  THE INQUISITOR [ Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 8 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 0 Runs 14k... no win
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
He didn't get a loss. Percentages seem difficult for some to understand.

If you were looking at it from Colby Lewis' perspective, I guess you could complain about a lack of "run support" too, but that would be ignoring the way Sale pitched, wouldn't it?


We all know that in your opinion Pitcher WINS are the key stat and the only way to a judge a pitchers performance. It is your opinion and I know this won't change your mind or stance but please consider these three pitching lnes from the past few Sox games.

June 14 Chris Sale: 6.2IP 2H 2R 2ER3BB 12K 69 Game Score LOSS
June 21 Chris Sale: 8IP 2H 0R 0ER 0BB 92 Game Score NO Decision
June 22 Carlos Rodon: 6IP 4H 2R 2ER 3BB K 58 Game Score WIN

Clearly in your opinion the Rodon start was easily the BEST
The 6/21 Sale start was a shoulder shrug and MEH.
The 6/14 Sale start was by far the worst since he LOST.

By game Score
6/21 Sale 92
6/14 Sale 69
6/22 Rodon 58
The one WINNER had the WORST overall individual performance.

In my opinion WINS are LOSSES are a team statistic. Based on a combination of offense, defense and pitching. YES it the MOST important stat as a team but is in NO way a reflection on who was the better pitcher.
Author:  Mr. Reason [ Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 8 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 0 Runs 14k... no win
Harvey Haddix wrote:
You win some, you lose some.
Author:  Rod [ Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 8 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 0 Runs 14k... no win
THE INQUISITOR wrote:
We all know that in your opinion Pitcher WINS are the key stat and the only way to a judge a pitchers performance.


I'm not sure how "we all" could know such a thing since I've never posted a thought anywhere close to that.

THE INQUISITOR wrote:
June 14 Chris Sale: 6.2IP 2H 2R 2ER3BB 12K 69 Game Score LOSS
June 21 Chris Sale: 8IP 2H 0R 0ER 0BB 92 Game Score NO Decision
June 22 Carlos Rodon: 6IP 4H 2R 2ER 3BB K 58 Game Score WIN

Clearly in your opinion the Rodon start was easily the BEST
The 6/21 Sale start was a shoulder shrug and MEH.
The 6/14 Sale start was by far the worst since he LOST.

By game Score
6/21 Sale 92
6/14 Sale 69
6/22 Rodon 58
The one WINNER had the WORST overall individual performance.

In my opinion WINS are LOSSES are a team statistic. Based on a combination of offense, defense and pitching. YES it the MOST important stat as a team but is in NO way a reflection on who was the better pitcher.


You seem confused. I would never use a single game to declare a pitcher is better. But you willfully choose to ignore the fact that a pitcher's performance is meaningless outside the context in which it actually exists, i.e. the game in which it occurred.
Author:  Cicero Dave [ Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 8 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 0 Runs 14k... no win
I happen to think that run support matters, and wins are also something to look at. Neither are the end all be all to judging how well a starting pitcher has played during the season. As with most of the traditional and the advance stats in baseball, the answer generally lies somewhere in the middle.

It was absolutely criminal that the Sox lost that game on Friday night.
Author:  Rod [ Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 8 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 0 Runs 14k... no win
Cicero Dave wrote:
I happen to think that run support matters, and wins are also something to look at. Neither are the end all be all to judging how well a starting pitcher has played during the season. As with most of the traditional and the advance stats in baseball, the answer generally lies somewhere in the middle.

It was absolutely criminal that the Sox lost that game on Friday night.


Well, you could say the Sox lost because Sale didn't get any "run support", but that's really no different than saying Colby Lewis pitched his ass off.

Clearly a starter's W/L record isn't as meaningful as it once was. Most guys hardly get beyond six innings and too much is put in the hands of relievers. But in a game like Friday's, you had two guys dueling it out. You could objectively say Sale pitched better than Lewis and indeed, he left with the lead. He didn't take a loss and his winning percentage was unaffected. But it would also be silly to Lewis "didn't deserve" the win. When Warren Spahn lost to Juan Marichal 1-0 in 16 innings, he wasn't complaining about a lack of "run support". That would be discounting what Marichal accomplished.

2015 Chris Sale is a poor poster boy to use to discredit my argument. He's winning at a .667 clip, better than the career percentage of any great pitcher in history. And this on a team that hits like it's playing in the original dead ball era.

Regardless, I suspect W/L record for pitchers may go by the wayside in the not so distant future. We're starting to see what that future may look like with some of the things they're doing in Tampa right now. Imagine instead of a traditional rotation that a team had two "lines" of three pitchers each that pitched for two or three innings each every other day. Harvey/Niese/Syndergaard one day and Colon/deGrom/Gee the next. I could easily see something like that happening. They would end up with about the same overall workload as in a traditional rotation, but most of the innings would be far less stressful.
Author:  Cicero Dave [ Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 8 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 0 Runs 14k... no win
Colby Lewis did have a great game on Friday. However, there are a lot of guys who have "pitched their ass off" against the White Sox this season. Some of them are pretty good pitchers. Other times its because the Sox are one of the worst offensive teams in all of baseball.
Author:  Rod [ Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 8 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 0 Runs 14k... no win
Cicero Dave wrote:
Colby Lewis did have a great game on Friday. However, there are a lot of guys who have "pitched their ass off" against the White Sox this season. Some of them are pretty good pitchers. Other times its because the Sox are one of the worst offensive teams in all of baseball.


True enough. But nobody ever makes the argument that a shitty pitcher lacked "run support". It's always about some guy someone is trying to say is good in spite of his lousy record. Sure, Lewis starts with the advantage of a better hitting team, but it's not that much better within the context of the tiny sample of a single game to consistently make a difference for a guy who is truly a top pitcher, thus Sale's .667 percentage or Carlton's .730 on a team that won 59 games. I suppose someone like THE INQUISTOR believes that Carlton would have been 38-0 if he had pitched for the A's in '72 instead of the Phillies. Baseball just doesn't work that way.
Author:  Hatchetman [ Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 8 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 0 Runs 14k... no win
Colby Lewis is old school. :lol: garbage baller. my son sees 85mph up on the scoreboard. Wow! that's fast!
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
https://www.phpbb.com/