Wallace is through. He'll add nothing to the Cavs in the playoffs, and they'll go out against Detroit or Boston easy.

Have the Bulls improved the winning percentage since the trade?

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They weren't going to get better this year in the win column, because everyone else has thrown in the towel already this season. They still need to get rid of some of the trash they still have.

I understand that, but the only real way that you can say it helped the Bulls was to improve the winning percentage. Those numbers are certainly an upgrade compared to those two guys, but it may have resulted in less production by other players.

I'm sure that Larry Hughes shoots more shots than Joe Smith did, so averaging over 15 points a game may not be an upgrade.

Are the Bulls scoring more points? Are the Bulls grabbing more rebounds?

I know that Ben Wallace was a bum and needed to go. I just am not ready to say that Larry Hughes is a better long term solution.

Drew Gooden is an upgrade.

I think the trade has worked out well, but they are still a long way from doing anything in a poor Eastern Conference.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I like his rebounding improvement. He seems more committed to playing in the paint then he did in Cleveland. I dont think he is worth more than $10M/year and unlike you I dont think he had great potential, but he is well worth the money we are paying him right now. Like Baku said earlier though, its a problem if he is your best guy.




Unfortunately. I wish we would just lose and get in the lottery. What do you mean by another? The Bulls have sucked lately save for the Utah game. I dont really want to see even half the current guys back and definitely not the coach.

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Nas look at our winning % since the trade. You cant tell me this is a better team than before despite individual numbers. They arent playing like it. One of the things the numbers dont account for is the pathetic fucking defense this team has routinely showed. Gooden has is doing 13.8/9.4 right now, which isnt 15/10 but its not bad. He still isnt even close to adequate on defense and isnt a difference maker. Me and you dont necessarily disagree on any of this. Like I said, for his price hes worth it.

As for Hughes, he sucks and will continue to do so. He isnt worth half as much as his contract is paying him. If you are paying Hughes $12M/year you are not a contender.

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+1 Gooden has 19 and 11 last night...did wallace ever score more than 15 in a game with the Bulls?

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I don't feel that is a fair comparison. Wallace is not known to be a scorer and wasn't asked to score. He was brought in for defense and rebounding which he didn't do well anyway.

I think I would rather have Gordon than Hughes. Gordon is a scorer period, I'll take his 3PT shooting and outside shooting over Hughes for sure. Granted, he has cold periods, but Hughes FG% is horrible, especially for someone whose game is not almost entirely outside like Gordons. Yeah great, Hughes gets 1.2 steals or whatever. I'm glad Gordon turned down the extension and I don't think he's worth 10 million but I'd rather have him than Hughes

a bit picky Nas? Ok so I took his stats before last nights game, after last nights game its 14.2/9.5. I said at the time it was a good trade for us, but not a great one. Thats still true. Winning % is the only stat that matters and we are 5-8 since the trade. I already said Im happy with what Gooden has been able to do, but him and Hughes are classic "good stats on bad teams" guys. Hughes does nothing to help us win ballgames. He is our new Ben Wallace. If Gooden wants to get paid more than $10M, get rid of him or let him walk. Anything less than that and Id be ok with him.

Pax still has a ton of work to do. Im not sure I want Deng back depending on the price, and we still need a new PG and SG. Gordon is a one dimensional player who is going to get paid like more than one this summer. Hughes is getting paid like a star and performing like a bum. I thought he was supposed to be the big defensive guard we needed? Dont you think that would have been beneficial when Chris Paul was tearing us a new one a couple nights ago? We beat a shitty Nets team building for the future. Hooray!

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The Bulls shouldnt be anything other than what they are, 5-8 with them. You are what your record says you are. We arent talking in hypotheticals



If you think Hughes is a guy the Bulls need, you are no longer allowed to make judgements on others basketball IQs. Like I said before, where was this defense on CP when we needed it?



Lets say a team is stupid enough to offer Deng a 6 year/$80M contract. You would match that if you were Pax? You would be effectively putting all your eggs in the "Deng is a franchise guy and we can win a championship with him as our best player" basket. Im not willing to do that. If we can sign him for $10M/year, Id jump on it. Like I said, it depends on the price but he is not a franchise guy and dont think he ever will be. I wouldnt pay him accordingly.

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1.) You need to check your math before saying Hughes numbers are alot better than kirks. Hughes is 15.4/4.2/3.5 Kirk's is 12.2/6.0/3.5. Hughes makes $3M more a year. Ill take Kirk for the money, although neither of them are worth it.

2.) I said CP is the best PG in the league. Kobe is the best player in the game. Still nobody even touched CP during that 4th quarter. If you are known as a big, defensive guard, you need to get in his kitchen a little bit and knock him on his ass. The Bulls are a very soft team and Hughes does nothing to diminish that notion.

3.) The Sixers and Bobcats will have money to overpay for him. There are about 8-10 other teams that might have enough cap room to overpay for him. Seattle definitely will. Yes I agree you get something for him, I just said you dont bring him back if its for Franchise Guy money.

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I kept telling myself to stay out of this one...

I partly agree with both of you... I mean yeah, the trade was definitely good for the Bulls. I think we can all agree short of a bucket of KFC anything we got back for Wallace would have been better. And Gooden is a solid, workmanlike PF who puts up decent numbers. There was no way you were going to be able to entirely erase the Wallace gaffe, and I Paxson did a pretty damn good job with what he got.

I also don't think two wrongs make a right....yes, I agree with Nas that Hinrich is overpaid for what he is and that's another problem/Pax mistake. Hinrich, Gordon and Hughes are all pretty interchangeable to me. At this point we've obviously seen Hughes' ceiling and I'm pretty sure we've seen Hinrich's and Gordons. They'll be middle of the road players, probably role players on a good team. Certainly not deserving of big money. So to me saying Hughes is better than Hinrich or Gordon isn't worth arguing...it may be true but it's pretty negligible. I'm not really feeling Nas on the fact that Hughes is such a great defender. Yes he gets steals but I wouldn't say his on the ball defense is superior or anything. There's a reason this guy has been on like 10 different teams.

Bottom line is this all comes back to Paxson's inability to trade the chips he had for something bigger. All of these players- Deng included (imo) are not franchise players. Since he struck out on getting Kobe and KG, we're stuck with a cache of similar, middle of the road players. Who knows next year they might play a little better, maybe make the playoffs and get promptly rejected in the 1st round. They're going to be like the 90's Pacers teams, just average- for a long time. I agree with Nas that it would be foolish not to match a reasonable offer for Deng or Gordon especially as since he points out not that many teams have significant cap room and the ones that do probably aren't targeting either of them. But to me that's pretty moot right now as Paxson already screwed the team until some other disgruntled superstar becomes available or they just start clearing massive cap room to go after LeBron or someone else big in a few years.

I agree with all this except I wouldnt get rid of Tyrus unless I was getting a real good asset back. He has shown he can play in this league and I wouldnt give up on him yet. I dont think his value is gonna get you anything in return and hes not making a ton of money right now so I would keep him. Other than that, I agree that you that if we bring the same pieces back we are looking at another .500 year. We need a superstar on this team. I wouldnt want Arenas though for max money.

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Sorry Nas, but I'm kind of with FavreFan on this one. I have a number of friends in Cleveland who were every bit as glad to be rid of Larry Hughes as we were to dump Big Ben. They all liked Gooden, but felt he was at best a complimentary player. I'll trust my eyes over statistics & I haven't seen anything in Hughes which makes me think he is an answer to anything for the Bulls other than who can finally replace Jamal Crawford for worst shot selection.

IMO Ben Gorden has more value as a 6th man than LH does as a starter. The only way I see the trade helping the Bulls in the short term is if Paxson can somehow move one or both in a way to gain cap space. Unfotunately I don't see it happening and I'm afraid next year's team will closely resemble this years...mediocre.

Yeah I'd have to agree about getting rid of Tyrus. I don't think his trade value is very high right now plus his salary is low. Unless you think this guy is a complete cancer (Wallace-like) I stick with him a little longer and see if he can turn it around

That's true, I agree

Agreed but they still are pathetically soft and dont have a go to guy. A superstar could solve those issues. I definitely dont see it happening but I would love to get Elton Brand.

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I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
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