And yet Curry's worst +/- in a game this season has been +7. He currently has a positive defensive box +/- over the average replacement player so far this season, and last season was his first season with one. He is improving his all around game.

Also...are you projecting Doug McDermott's offense to become the same caliber as Stephen Curry's?

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

No I am not. Not even close. McDermott can be hid on defense just like Curry is hidden on defense. Curry guards the worst offensive player from positions 1-3. Analytics are not going to tell you that watching the game will. His plus seven has a lot to do with his offense no doubt. It has more to do with the elite defenders that surround him. Green, Thompson, Iggy, even Barnes are all good to great defenders. The Bulls don't have that in terms of depth defensively, But Noah, Gibson, and Butler are all elite defenders in their own right.

Is McDermott good enough offensively to be hidden on defense is the question? I don't think so, but the Bulls other options at the 3 are not particularly enticing. He has to get minutes 20-25 a game if the Bulls are going to take the next step.

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Ба́бушка гада́ла, да на́двое сказа́ла—то ли до́ждик, то ли снег, то ли бу́дет, то ли нет.

What's the point of bringing up Curry? Really? He's miles ahead of McDermott at every NBA skill. Mcdermott is pretty terrible right now.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

The Bulls have BETTER defenders than the Warriors do, and it has been on display for the last several years. When they care about playing defense, and had a coach that appreciated good defense.

Yes, offensive is tied into +/-. That is a fantastic thought by you. Never would have figured that one out myself.

Oh, wait. That is the entire point of +/-. To compare how much a team scores compared to how much a team gives up, broken down by player. And NetRating is the same thing, but for a team.

As soon as McDermott offers the same kind of offense Curry does, I'm willing to risk 'hiding' or attempting to 'hide' that player on defense.

But McDermott isn't Curry. He isn't 25% of Curry.

edit:

Curry's defensive metrics have gone up in four consecutive seasons. YES.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

What? That was true 2-3 years ago. Golden State is the way better defensive team now. It's not close. When Bogut is there, him, Klay, Iguodala, and Green are all great defenders.

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Fare you well, fare you well
I love you more than words can tell
Listen to the river sing sweet songs
To rock my soul

His defensive metrics couldn't have possibly gotten any worse. He was and is terrible defensively.


You obviously don't watch much basketball. The Warriors have better defenders than the Bulls.


I will watch more of McDermott but there is too much drive by analysis where he is concerned. He didn't play much last year. He should have though. I haven't seen all of this terribleness that everyone on here keeps talking about. It just seems to me that it is necessary to further Thibs narrative of why he should not have played last year.

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Not too mention guys Like Ezeli and Livingston. They are solid defenders also.

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The Bulls lead the NBA in defense in 2013-2014, and were ahead of Golden State in most categories in 2014-2015.

This year, the Bulls have a coach that will not give a shit about defense...so I do not expect the Bulls to rank anywhere near the top, even though the same roster exists as last season.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

The last Metric that watched in regards to Bulls defense had them ranked 11th last year. I am pretty sure that Golden State was higher.


This is why analytics are not always accurate. Can you tell me who Curry guarded during the Cleveland Series? How about the Houston and Memphis series last year? If you can then I will explain how meaningless those stats actually are in some cases? The eye test told me a whole lot more than some numbers spit out from a computer.

When I reference Bernstein this is the sort of thing that I am speaking to. This is the sort of stuff that he uses to tout his sports knowledge. He resorts to numbers as a means of disguising his ignorance. That is sort of what you are doing now.

If you go off PPG. as a way of supporting your argument then its fairly easy to see why the Bulls allowed fewer points. Watching the games will illustrate it for you. There are other metrics as well. Metrics are not evil but you can't be the go to for everything sports related

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You realize that numbers spit out from a computer are from the same game you watched with your eyes, yes?

I feel as if you're missing that fact.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

This is what the numbers don't tell me.

1. Curry guarded Iman Shumpert during the series against Cleveland. Shumpert is a non offensive player. The defensive metrics that you reference are not going to account for that. They will just show that Shumpert didnt score much against Curry. He doesn't score much against anyone. It also won't show you that Klay Thompson not Curry guarded Irving in game 1. Irving and Curry play the same position which theoretically means that Curry should have guarded Kyrie Irving.

2. Houston series he guarded 37 year old Jason Terry which was his position but Terry is about done as a basketball player. How much effort does one have to expend guarding him at this stage of the game.

3. Memphis series he guarded Courtney Lee and not Mike Conley who happens to play the same position.

When you say that his metrics have gotten better that is probably mostly a team related stat. GS has better defenders than they had 4 yrs ago. Monte Ellis and David Lee were starters on that team 4 yrs ago. They are two terrible defenders also.

When you watch the game you will understand what I am talking about. Klay Thompson takes the tough cover point guard assignments not Curry. Irving guarded Curry on 1 leg during game 1 and Curry guarded Shumpert. He ducks the tough covers. This year it is changing somewhat but it is still early.

When they play OKC watch and see if he checks Westbrook. If he does then that will indicate that he has arrived as a defender.

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PG defense seems to only matter when it's a situation like Dellavedova harassing the opponent/Steph Curry into a bad game.

Curry's job on defense, like most point guards, is to move his feet and keep his guy in front of him. But inevitably the guy gets by the defensive PG and that's when and why your most important defenders are your centers and swingmen. If Dougie McEuroBuckets were a PG, the fact that anyone can take him off the dribble and shoot over him would matter less--a PG gets beat, the 2nd line of defense kicks in. PG needs to rotate and rebound and fight through picks etc. But in terms of importance on defense, PG is usually the least important player on the court.

But a guy like Doug McDermott, who usually comes in as a 3/4 swingman, he's involved defensively on almost every defensive possession. well, he's supposed to be involved defensively on every defensive possession. which is why teams eyes light up and they fight over the ball when McDermott's on the court--just dribble at him and pull up over him or dribble around him as he stands there with his hands sorta in the air.

I assume Hoiberg's been told to give McDermott minutes--esp with Dunleavy sidelined. But like last night, McDermott started, OKC jumps out to a double digit lead. McDermott rode the pine after the first 8 minutes and Bulls came back and took a lead into halftime. Coming out at the half, McDermott's back on the court, OKC comes back and takes a lead. Hoiberg sits McDermott down and Bulls retake a nice lead.

McDermott had one of his best NBA games (in terms of scoring) the other night vs Charlotte--and the Bulls lost by 20+ points. Look at McDermott's highest minute/highest point games--all ended in double digit drubbings of the Bulls by such crap teams as injured Indy last season and Charlotte this season.

Hoiberg will be a good solider, as Thibs was last season, and give McDermott minutes for the first part of the season. But once Dunleavy's back and the calender turns to 2016, I expect Hoiberg will limit McDermott to the same handful of minutes per game that Thibs gave Doug-E McEuroBuckets 2nd half of last season.

It took Jimmer 4 seasons and at least as many teams to finally bust out of the NBA. It's possible McDermott hangs around for that long. Hopefully not with the Bulls.

For the people that hang on plus/minus everyone's plus minus was terrible during that game. That one is not on McDermott. The Bulls were down 22 at half and that was the point I began watching. Don't know much about the first half stuff. If you look at the game last night Mcdermott checked Robertson a guy that no one on this board even knew of before last night. That was his primary assignment. It is difficult to state the Bulls were losing because of McDermott. What did Robertson actually do that caused the Bulls to be down.

Conversely check for the Guy that Mirotic was guarding. What did he do in the first half? No one has mentioned that because it is conventient to bash McDermott. Ibaka was killing Mirotic during the first half. He was already in Double figures by the start of the second quarter. Ibaka is a third or fourth option. That had more to do with the runs than bad McDermott defense in my opinion.

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Of course they won't account for that. I didn't post any post-season statistics. Fucking moron.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

The same thing happens during the Regular season. He never guards guys that are offensive threats. I just didnt have the time to pick apart regular season games. You didn't know the answer anyway. I asked just to see if you knew and it was obvious you didn't so asked and answered my own question. I knew I would have to do that anyway.

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You think I was going to read your entire post after that first gem?

If I appreciate NetRating as a statistic for efficiency, it means I appreciate efficiency. And if a post is deemed to be worthless after the third sentence, it would be inefficient of me to read the entire thing.

Go play in the sandbox. You're not old enough for the jungle gym.

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Rick Hahn is the best GM in baseball.

Not if the jungle gym is designed by the basketball Bill James. You are using the same logic that you applied to your baseball rhetoric. You have to watch the games a little more. That will tell you more than your statistics. They are not completely worthless but if the eye test cant tell you that Steph Curry is one of the weaker defenders in the league then I don't know what will.

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agreed.

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Ба́бушка гада́ла, да на́двое сказа́ла—то ли до́ждик, то ли снег, то ли бу́дет, то ли нет.

I had my eye on Young as well as Lavine. There were a few others but those two I remember definitively.


Will he be as good defensively as Korver. Korver is terrible defensively and he made the all star team. I shouldn't have made the Curry comparison but I made it to demonstrate how people place too much of an emphasis on defense.

Korver is a more accurate comparison.

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Since Doug has been starting Nikolas' game has gone to hell.From here on out and comparison to Curry is just stupid!

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I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

It's not stupid to compare their defense. Curry is a bad defender.

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Live your life comparing bits of peoples games look at their entire game....do you want to compare NOW

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I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

McDermott can also shoot too. Not like Curry but he can shoot. I'm not saying he is Steph Curry. What I'm saying is that if Defense was that important he wouldn't be the damn MVP. James Harden's lazy defense playing ass wouldn't have been second either. That's my point. Message board spin jobs are a motherfucker.

Barkley called this shit the other night. Elite defenders are rarely among the highest paid players in the league. Elite scorers are. What does that suggest about value. McDermott can score. He also is,the best shooter on the team. He should play.

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Butler is hands down the best shooter on the team, McDermott should play as a 7th man maybe 8th.

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My God 3-4 last night 0 assist 0 turnovers can't create his own shoot...starting because assholes Garpax drafted him at #5. They want to see him play and play he will! I don't like what I see...you all do.Just sit back and enjoy

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I'm going to bounce from the spot for awhile but I will be back at some point to argue with you about this hoops stuff again. Playoffs have been great this season. See ya up the road.

I'm out.

This why the +/- thing is not always the best measure of a player's effectiveness. It definitely should not be the only metric used.

Mirotic was the worst of the Bull starters last night. Bad shot selection and fouling everyone in sight while on the floor, yet he is the only Bull starter with a positive +/-.

He has a positive +/- even though he did very little to earn the positive rating. If you go solely off this rating you'd think the guy played well. He didnt. He absolutely stunk the joint up but his positive rating would not be a reflection of that.

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when hes on the floor the other team relaxes thinking they have it easy

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the world will always the world. your entire existence is defined by your response.

The nephew heavy into NBA2K - 2016.

dont 100% get the theory, but players have scores. Dynamic Scoring changes weekly if a guy improves. So they asked me about any Bulls players that might be valuable and get better. Good to buy low on a guy.

We went to look at Portis's score. 71. Its low, but I dont what it is compared to other. Curry is a 98. I figure its a video game, so maybe Doug McBulls would have some 3 value. Score 61! Defense is a 40..out of 100.

So I had him play a game with McBuckets on the floor....almost everytime, the computer went to the man Dougie was guarding...and yes, he scored most of the time.

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"That's what the internet is for. Slandering others anonymously." Banky
“Been that way since one monkey looked at the sun and told the other monkey ‘He said for you to give me your fuckin’ share.’”

+/- was developed for hockey and it's largely bullshit in its own sport. How could it be a be-all-end-all in basketball?

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