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Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
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Author:  Curious Hair [ Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_yb5o5dM2U

None of this is new, but it's a nice little SB Nation video. I think it's best summed up by the narrator, explaining how Krause pissed off Jordan by trading Oakley for Cartwright and then later acquired an aged Oakley to play under Cartwright, simply pausing and saying "the Bulls are weird."
Author:  312player [ Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
IMO, it all started with Jerry choosing Krause over MJ-Phil. That was the begin and the end. That whole " organizations win championship not players" was doubling down on being shortsighted and foolish.
Author:  Caller Bob [ Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
#7 would have been tough. Rodman was already off the reservation.
Author:  veganfan21 [ Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
Floyd was an objectively dumb thing to do. Krause did however stock those teams with lottery picks - most just didn't pan out. And even the ones that turned out good never flourished with the Bulls due to coaching problems. Good design but flawed execution.
Author:  FavreFan [ Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
veganfan21 wrote:
Floyd was an objectively dumb thing to do. Krause did however stock those teams with lottery picks - most just didn't pan out. And even the ones that turned out good never flourished with the Bulls due to coaching problems. Good design but flawed execution.

:lol: this isn’t a shot at you but the design deserves ZERO praise. It’s like the dipshit Sox fans who praise Hahn. Anyone can tear a team down, trade good players for assets, and get the worst team in the league. Literally every single person here can do that job. It requires no skill and minimal effort. The execution of turning a rebuilding team into a contending team is literally the entire job.
Author:  312player [ Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
veganfan21 wrote:
Floyd was an objectively dumb thing to do. Krause did however stock those teams with lottery picks - most just didn't pan out. And even the ones that turned out good never flourished with the Bulls due to coaching problems. Good design but flawed execution.



If (((Jerry))) chose MJ- Phil over Krause..you think the bulls win 2 more rings?
Author:  FavreFan [ Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
312player wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Floyd was an objectively dumb thing to do. Krause did however stock those teams with lottery picks - most just didn't pan out. And even the ones that turned out good never flourished with the Bulls due to coaching problems. Good design but flawed execution.



If (((Jerry))) chose MJ- Phil over Krause..you think the bulls win 2 more rings?

They’d win another one certainly. That SA team wasn’t ready for them and it was a short schedule. 50/50 shot against the Lakers the year after depending on old man health.
Author:  MajorKong [ Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
FavreFan wrote:
312player wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Floyd was an objectively dumb thing to do. Krause did however stock those teams with lottery picks - most just didn't pan out. And even the ones that turned out good never flourished with the Bulls due to coaching problems. Good design but flawed execution.



If (((Jerry))) chose MJ- Phil over Krause..you think the bulls win 2 more rings?

They’d win another one certainly. That SA team wasn’t ready for them and it was a short schedule. 50/50 shot against the Lakers the year after depending on old man health.


What would've happened if they played the Nazis instead?
Author:  FavreFan [ Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
MajorKong wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
312player wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Floyd was an objectively dumb thing to do. Krause did however stock those teams with lottery picks - most just didn't pan out. And even the ones that turned out good never flourished with the Bulls due to coaching problems. Good design but flawed execution.



If (((Jerry))) chose MJ- Phil over Krause..you think the bulls win 2 more rings?

They’d win another one certainly. That SA team wasn’t ready for them and it was a short schedule. 50/50 shot against the Lakers the year after depending on old man health.


What would've happened if they played the Nazis instead?

Bulls win in 5
Author:  veganfan21 [ Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Floyd was an objectively dumb thing to do. Krause did however stock those teams with lottery picks - most just didn't pan out. And even the ones that turned out good never flourished with the Bulls due to coaching problems. Good design but flawed execution.

:lol: this isn’t a shot at you but the design deserves ZERO praise. It’s like the dipshit Sox fans who praise Hahn. Anyone can tear a team down, trade good players for assets, and get the worst team in the league. Literally every single person here can do that job. It requires no skill and minimal effort. The execution of turning a rebuilding team into a contending team is literally the entire job.


Not sure what you're arguing against. Do you think Sam Presti did a good job making the Sonics/Thunder a contender by drafting Durant, Westbrook and Harden? If so, how was Krause's strategy any different?
Author:  FavreFan [ Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Floyd was an objectively dumb thing to do. Krause did however stock those teams with lottery picks - most just didn't pan out. And even the ones that turned out good never flourished with the Bulls due to coaching problems. Good design but flawed execution.

:lol: this isn’t a shot at you but the design deserves ZERO praise. It’s like the dipshit Sox fans who praise Hahn. Anyone can tear a team down, trade good players for assets, and get the worst team in the league. Literally every single person here can do that job. It requires no skill and minimal effort. The execution of turning a rebuilding team into a contending team is literally the entire job.


Not sure what you're arguing against. Do you think Sam Presti did a good job making the Sonics/Thunder a contender by drafting Durant, Westbrook and Harden? If so, how was Krause's strategy any different?

Read my post again. Getting high draft picks requires zero skill. Selecting the right players does. There’s zero skill involved with the former, you and MANY others need to realize that distinction and stop praising front offices for doing what my 8 year old nephew could do.

Understand?
Author:  veganfan21 [ Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Floyd was an objectively dumb thing to do. Krause did however stock those teams with lottery picks - most just didn't pan out. And even the ones that turned out good never flourished with the Bulls due to coaching problems. Good design but flawed execution.

:lol: this isn’t a shot at you but the design deserves ZERO praise. It’s like the dipshit Sox fans who praise Hahn. Anyone can tear a team down, trade good players for assets, and get the worst team in the league. Literally every single person here can do that job. It requires no skill and minimal effort. The execution of turning a rebuilding team into a contending team is literally the entire job.


Not sure what you're arguing against. Do you think Sam Presti did a good job making the Sonics/Thunder a contender by drafting Durant, Westbrook and Harden? If so, how was Krause's strategy any different?

Read my post again. Getting high draft picks requires zero skill. Selecting the right players does. There’s zero skill involved with the former, you and MANY others need to realize that distinction and stop praising front offices for doing what my 8 year old nephew could do.

Understand?


Well this gets into the whole luck vs skill debate when it comes to drafting. It appears you think Presti is a genius because the guy in front of him picked Oden. I don't think Presti is a genius. He was lucky.

Krause had two lottery picks in one of the worst drafts in history. You apparently think that makes him a bad GM. He was unlucky.
Author:  FrankDrebin [ Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
Curious Hair wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_yb5o5dM2U

None of this is new, but it's a nice little SB Nation video. I think it's best summed up by the narrator, explaining how Krause pissed off Jordan by trading Oakley for Cartwright and then later acquired an aged Oakley to play under Cartwright, simply pausing and saying "the Bulls are weird."


Betcha MJ wasn't pissed after rings #1, 2, and 3.

He was upset that the Bulls didn't bring in Walter Davis via trade in the winter of '91.
Author:  FavreFan [ Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Floyd was an objectively dumb thing to do. Krause did however stock those teams with lottery picks - most just didn't pan out. And even the ones that turned out good never flourished with the Bulls due to coaching problems. Good design but flawed execution.

:lol: this isn’t a shot at you but the design deserves ZERO praise. It’s like the dipshit Sox fans who praise Hahn. Anyone can tear a team down, trade good players for assets, and get the worst team in the league. Literally every single person here can do that job. It requires no skill and minimal effort. The execution of turning a rebuilding team into a contending team is literally the entire job.


Not sure what you're arguing against. Do you think Sam Presti did a good job making the Sonics/Thunder a contender by drafting Durant, Westbrook and Harden? If so, how was Krause's strategy any different?

Read my post again. Getting high draft picks requires zero skill. Selecting the right players does. There’s zero skill involved with the former, you and MANY others need to realize that distinction and stop praising front offices for doing what my 8 year old nephew could do.

Understand?


Well this gets into the whole luck vs skill debate when it comes to drafting. It appears you think Presti is a genius because the guy in front of him picked Oden. I don't think Presti is a genius. He was lucky.

Krause had two lottery picks in one of the worst drafts in history. You apparently think that makes him a bad GM. He was unlucky.

Argue against what I said, not what you wanted me to say. Thanks.
Author:  veganfan21 [ Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
The draft is a combination of skill and luck. It's not all skill as you seem to think it is. I agree it takes zero skill to tear a team down and suck. But if through tearing the team down you secure a bunch of high draft picks then that indicates some sort of strategy. You and I both are aware of plenty of teams that suck and have no picks to look forward to. Both Krause and Paxson have avoided turning the Bulls into one of those perpetually 37 win teams with highly paid vets and no prospects.

Converting those picks into good players depends on a combination of skill and luck.
Author:  FavreFan [ Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
veganfan21 wrote:
The draft is a combination of skill and luck. It's not all skill as you seem to think it is. I agree it takes zero skill to tear a team down and suck. But if through tearing the team down you secure a bunch of high draft picks then that indicates some sort of strategy. You and I both are aware of plenty of teams that suck and have no picks to look forward to. Both Krause and Paxson have avoided turning the Bulls into one of those perpetually 37 win teams with highly paid vets and no prospects.

Converting those picks into good players depends on a combination of skill and luck.

It does but you seem to miss out on the skill part of that equation and consider it all luck, which is obviously wrong.

But yeah you agree with my main point so thanks. There’s ZERO praise due for a team tearing its roster down and sucking and trading good players for prospects who the team hopes are as good as the players traded for them. Thats what I wanted you to finally acknowledge with the ridiculous “good design” comments.
Author:  good dolphin [ Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
312player wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Floyd was an objectively dumb thing to do. Krause did however stock those teams with lottery picks - most just didn't pan out. And even the ones that turned out good never flourished with the Bulls due to coaching problems. Good design but flawed execution.



If (((Jerry))) chose MJ- Phil over Krause..you think the bulls win 2 more rings?


((Krause))
Author:  good dolphin [ Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
Weird Jerry has always had an infatuation with his management team. Conversely he has always viewed his players as thieves.
Author:  long time guy [ Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Floyd was an objectively dumb thing to do. Krause did however stock those teams with lottery picks - most just didn't pan out. And even the ones that turned out good never flourished with the Bulls due to coaching problems. Good design but flawed execution.

:lol: this isn’t a shot at you but the design deserves ZERO praise. It’s like the dipshit Sox fans who praise Hahn. Anyone can tear a team down, trade good players for assets, and get the worst team in the league. Literally every single person here can do that job. It requires no skill and minimal effort. The execution of turning a rebuilding team into a contending team is literally the entire job.


Not sure what you're arguing against. Do you think Sam Presti did a good job making the Sonics/Thunder a contender by drafting Durant, Westbrook and Harden? If so, how was Krause's strategy any different?

Read my post again. Getting high draft picks requires zero skill. Selecting the right players does. There’s zero skill involved with the former, you and MANY others need to realize that distinction and stop praising front offices for doing what my 8 year old nephew could do.

Understand?


Well this gets into the whole luck vs skill debate when it comes to drafting. It appears you think Presti is a genius because the guy in front of him picked Oden. I don't think Presti is a genius. He was lucky.

Krause had two lottery picks in one of the worst drafts in history. You apparently think that makes him a bad GM. He was unlucky.


Being able to ID talent is a skill. Great GM's have it. Bad ones don't.

If Krause selects Gasol instead of Chandler we aren't having this conversation. A great GM would have been able to see that you would never be able to play Chandler and Curry together as both had the skillset of a center.

Krause miscast Chandler as the next Kevin Garnett. There was nothing in Chandler's game which suggested that.
Author:  veganfan21 [ Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
long time guy wrote:
[
If Krause selects Gasol instead of Chandler we aren't having this conversation.


This isn't analysis.
Author:  long time guy [ Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
veganfan21 wrote:
long time guy wrote:
[
If Krause selects Gasol instead of Chandler we aren't having this conversation.


This isn't analysis.


A skilled GM would have been able to see that Gasol was better. They also would have been able to see that Curry and Chandler were both centers.

Saying that guys get "lucky" is just silly. The Lakers got "lucky" with #2 pick 3 years running and missed on the better player all three years.

Where was the "luck" in that?
Author:  veganfan21 [ Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
What skill did Sam Presti demonstrate when the GM in front of him skipped Durant?

Gasol and Chandler weren't in the same draft.
Author:  Hatchetman [ Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
Curry was a headcase. that should have been known by a good scout.
Author:  long time guy [ Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
veganfan21 wrote:
What skill did Sam Presti demonstrate when the GM in front of him skipped Durant?

Gasol and Chandler weren't in the same draft.


A skilled GM drafts Durant #1.
A skilled GM doesn't draft Lonzo Ball in front of Jayson Tatum. Especially when they have a better point already on the team.

Yes they were.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/dr ... _2001.html
Author:  RFDC [ Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
long time guy wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
What skill did Sam Presti demonstrate when the GM in front of him skipped Durant?

Gasol and Chandler weren't in the same draft.


A skilled GM drafts Durant #1.

Yes they were.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/dr ... _2001.html

Yeah the video clearly pointed that out that sandwiched inbetween the Bulls guys was Gasol.
Author:  long time guy [ Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
RFDC wrote:
long time guy wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
What skill did Sam Presti demonstrate when the GM in front of him skipped Durant?

Gasol and Chandler weren't in the same draft.


A skilled GM drafts Durant #1.

Yes they were.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/dr ... _2001.html

Yeah the video clearly pointed that out that sandwiched inbetween the Bulls guys was Gasol.


I remembered that draft because I remember how much Krause tried to sell Chandler as the next KG. I bought the B.S. too.


Jay Williams getting injured changed a lot too.
Author:  NME [ Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Collapse: How the Bulls Self-Destructed
FavreFan wrote:
312player wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Floyd was an objectively dumb thing to do. Krause did however stock those teams with lottery picks - most just didn't pan out. And even the ones that turned out good never flourished with the Bulls due to coaching problems. Good design but flawed execution.



If (((Jerry))) chose MJ- Phil over Krause..you think the bulls win 2 more rings?

They’d win another one certainly. That SA team wasn’t ready for them and it was a short schedule. 50/50 shot against the Lakers the year after depending on old man health.




The Lakers weren’t going anywhere without Phil, and in this scenario the Bulls have Phil so..
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