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Bill Simmons Thoughts on Vinny
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Author:  RFDC [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Bill Simmons Thoughts on Vinny
Found this at ESPN:

Signs of life lately. I caught the Bulls in person recently and it's astonishing that they aren't good or even half-decent. Of all the lousy coaching hirings recently (Terry Porter, P.J. Carlesimo, Michael Curry, Sam Vincent, Reggie Theus, Marc Iavaroni), what's funny is Vinny Del Negro was by far the worst. It's even scarier in person when you're sitting behind the Bulls' bench; I know a reader once compared Vinny's coaching to Shooter's taking over Hickory High that first time, but actually, it's more like watching an old person getting ready to go through a metal detector at an airport. Just complete confusion and panic and a lot of stopping and starting and glancing around. I feel bad even making fun of it. Let's just move on.

For the whole article click here:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/st ... ons/090212
Author:  bigfan [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bill Simmons Thoughts on Vinny
This recent semi success and better play of Noah and Thomas scares the shit out of me! Pax is going to think these guys are developing and wont trade them.
Author:  IkeSouth [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bill Simmons Thoughts on Vinny
no, pax isnt stupid. he knows why those two suddenly look good. he know why ANYONE on this team suddenly looks good. just remember- it all starts with #1.
Author:  FavreFan [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bill Simmons Thoughts on Vinny
IkeSouth wrote:
no, pax isnt stupid.


More and more Im beginning to disagree with this. In fact, hes borderline retarded as a GM. He lucked into the Derrick Rose pick. I havent seen much basketball this season but Vinny does appear to be overmatched as a coach and Simmons knows the NBA very well and I trust his opinion on this. Hopefully Rose doesnt save Pax and Vinnys jobs much longer.
Author:  MattInTheCrown [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bill Simmons Thoughts on Vinny
Well, RFDC, we give each other tons of shit, but I'll thank you for this link. I think I'll start reading Simmons regularly. I liked the linked article so much that I went back and read some archives, and now I'm starting to get cold feet over the theoretical Stoudemire trade:
Bill Simmons wrote:
Group J: "Everything Must Go! Everything Must Go!"

36. Amare Stoudemire
Bruce in Phoenix recently begged me, "Can you hold off on the Trade Value column until some GM is dumb enough to offer us too much for Amare? I don't want them to know that he sucks now!" Hey, Bruce? I think they know. Why do you think you're getting so many pu-pu platter offers? It would help if Amare grabbed a rebound or switched correctly on a high screen more than twice per quarter.

This worries me, even though he goes on to say:
Quote:
I still say the Amare era is salvageable -- stick the kid on a team with a good point guard (Chicago?), tell him to just worry about putting the biscuit in the basket (New York? G-State?), or trade for him and say, "We love you, you're our franchise guy" (Sacramento? Memphis? Indiana?) and I think he'd start slapping up 29-9s again. With a smile on his face.

It worries me because, even though he seems to have confidence in Stoudemire, there's the theory he posited in this article: specifically, that "Mike D'Antoni [is], the Coors Field of coaches." From the article:
Bill Simmons wrote:
Remember what happened to Quentin Richardson when he left Phoenix? (Even Sugar from Survivor didn't disappear as quickly.) Have you seen Boris Diaw, Leandro Barbosa or Raja Bell this season? (Overpaid bench players, as it turns out.) Or Amaré Stoudemire? (Is he even an All-Star anymore?)

I guess it somewhat works in your favor if he's a bust that his contract is up in 2010; but at the same time, if he's a *great success*, it can hurt you, because now you've given up players and you have to sign one of your own to a max contract during one of the greatest free agent years possibly of all time.
Author:  RFDC [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bill Simmons Thoughts on Vinny
MattInTheCrown wrote:
Well, RFDC, we give each other tons of shit, but I'll thank you for this link.


Glad you enjoyed it Matt. I have enjoyed Simmons.

I am worried about the Amare deal as well.

But then again, can it be much worse that what we got? Might as well roll the dice and see if Amare and Rose can get the job done.
Author:  RFDC [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bill Simmons Thoughts on Vinny
Nas wrote:
Why would trading Tyrus Thomas in a package for Amare scare any of you guys? Who would the Bulls be giving up that would scare you? It's a no brainer. A low post scoring threat with Rose is a recipe for a future championship run.


IMO it has nothing to do with trading Tyrus. I am more than willing to trade him or any of the losers on this team other than Rose.

My fear is that Amare isn't really as good as some may think, and maybe we would be better served going in another direction.

But if Pax pulls the trigger on Amare, I will be good with it. They have to do something.
Author:  MattInTheCrown [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bill Simmons Thoughts on Vinny
RFDC wrote:
Nas wrote:
Why would trading Tyrus Thomas in a package for Amare scare any of you guys? Who would the Bulls be giving up that would scare you? It's a no brainer. A low post scoring threat with Rose is a recipe for a future championship run.

IMO it has nothing to do with trading Tyrus. I am more than willing to trade him or any of the losers on this team other than Rose.

My fear is that Amare isn't really as good as some may think, and maybe we would be better served going in another direction.

But if Pax pulls the trigger on Amare, I will be good with it. They have to do something.

Totally agree. :shock: 8)
Author:  RFDC [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bill Simmons Thoughts on Vinny
MattInTheCrown wrote:
Totally agree. :shock: 8)


Man what is this world coming to :lol:
Author:  MattInTheCrown [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bill Simmons Thoughts on Vinny
RFDC wrote:
MattInTheCrown wrote:
Totally agree. :shock: 8)

Man what is this world coming to :lol:

"Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!"
Author:  Mr. Reason [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bill Simmons Thoughts on Vinny
MattInTheCrown wrote:
RFDC wrote:
MattInTheCrown wrote:
Totally agree. :shock: 8)

Man what is this world coming to :lol:

"Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!"

You better duck and cover guys, 'cause I'm with you both.
Author:  FavreFan [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bill Simmons Thoughts on Vinny
Nas wrote:
Why would trading Tyrus Thomas in a package for Amare scare any of you guys? Who would the Bulls be giving up that would scare you? It's a no brainer. A low post scoring threat with Rose is a recipe for a future championship run.


Slow down there killer. Im not convinced Amare can be the 2nd best player on a title team. His defense is terrible and Nash helps create alot of his buckets. He's definitely one of the best low post scorers when he wants to be, and a good but not great rebounder, and hes never shown a consistent commitment to defense. Basically he seems like a more athletic Carlos Boozer.
Author:  W_Z [ Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bill Simmons Thoughts on Vinny
Mr. Reason wrote:
You better duck and cover guys, 'cause I'm with you both.


sports brings people together. except cubs and sox fans.
Author:  FavreFan [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bill Simmons Thoughts on Vinny
Nas wrote:
I think Amare can be the best player on a championship team.

For the life of me I can't understand how any of you guys can have second thoughts about acquiring Amare.


:shock: :shock:

I really dont see whatever it is you are seeing. When has Amare ever played great defense against Duncan? Hes played great offensively against the best in the NBA, but never defensively. Like I've repeated several times his defense has always been horrendous, his footwork is terrible, his timing hasnt improved in six years, and his rotation is non-existent, basocally he doesnt even play team D which you have said he is good at, which I dont get. And all of this is my analysis of him untill this season because I couldnt watch alot of basketball this season, and everyone seems to unanimously agree hes taken a step back this season.

Again, Im not opposed to getting him, but youre crazy if you think he'll be the best player on a championbship team. To me his absolute ceiling is 2nd best player on a title team, and I doubt he'll reach that. His defense has light years to go, his rebounding isnt great, and he doesnt make his teammates better.
Author:  FavreFan [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bill Simmons Thoughts on Vinny
Nas wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Nas wrote:
I think Amare can be the best player on a championship team.

For the life of me I can't understand how any of you guys can have second thoughts about acquiring Amare.


:shock: :shock:

I really dont see whatever it is you are seeing. When has Amare ever played great defense against Duncan? Hes played great offensively against the best in the NBA, but never defensively. Like I've repeated several times his defense has always been horrendous, his footwork is terrible, his timing hasnt improved in six years, and his rotation is non-existent, basocally he doesnt even play team D which you have said he is good at, which I dont get. And all of this is my analysis of him untill this season because I couldnt watch alot of basketball this season, and everyone seems to unanimously agree hes taken a step back this season.

Again, Im not opposed to getting him, but youre crazy if you think he'll be the best player on a championbship team. To me his absolute ceiling is 2nd best player on a title team, and I doubt he'll reach that. His defense has light years to go, his rebounding isnt great, and he doesnt make his teammates better.


FF I really believe this is a case where you feel have to analyze and be critical of a guy that may be coming here. I've heard a lot of people on the board say they would want Bosh in a couple years. I believe you are one of those guys that's on the Bosh bandwagon. My question to you is how can you not have a problem with the Bulls throwing nearly $20M a year at Bosh but have a problem with Amare? Both are great players but one is more physical and dominate. That guy is Amare. Somehow you believe that a guy that average 29 and 9.5 when he was given the opportunity to be the man can't be a #1 guy. That's surprising to me.


Ive never been on a Bosh bandwagon nor a Ben Gordon bandwagon. Read my post on the other thread. I feel Ive been rehashing the same points over and over again. I respectfully disagree with your assertion that Amare is capable of being an all around dominant player. I wouldnt be opposed to a trade for him however because I agree that everyone not named Rose is expendable.
Author:  FavreFan [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bill Simmons Thoughts on Vinny
Nas wrote:
:lol: I'm sure you've never seen me post that Amare was an all around dominate player so please don't put words in my mouth.

In a couple years it's likely Rose will be the best player on the team so I don't really get the argument you are making.


You said he could be the best player on a championship team. Excluding the abberation 2004 Pistons, who was the last team to win a title without a dominant all around player?

Also isnt it very clear Rose is already the best player on the team? Unless you are referring to if we get Amare, which again I go back to the fact that Im not nearly convinced he has what it takes to be the 2nd best player on a championship team, especially with the piss poor coaching/management/player development our franchise has shown. He has a long way to go before even reaching that status IMO.
Author:  FavreFan [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bill Simmons Thoughts on Vinny
Nas wrote:
There are a lot of guys in this league that aren't all around players (Wade and especially LeBron come to mind) but are so great at what they do well that they make up for it. Again putting up the numbers he did with the Suns in the last 34 games last season is more than good enough.


:shock: Wow. LeBron is an extremely talented defender, and also is the best in the NBA besides possibly CP at making his teammates better. Were you serious to imply he is not a very dominant all around player? Also Wade maybe not on Kobes level as a defender, but hes still a very good defender. Much, much better at his position than Amare. And also, again, makes his teammates better and has already proven he can carry a team to a championship(albeit with much help from the refs). Amare will never be in those guys league.
Author:  FavreFan [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bill Simmons Thoughts on Vinny
Nas wrote:
I really don't believe Wade or LeBron are dominate all around players like you say are required to win titles. I don't think either of them are better than slightly above average defenders. Based on the competition Amare would see in the East at PF or C I seriously doubt defense will be a problem. I think that's the other thing you may be missing too.


I consider LeBron an awesome defensive player. Part of that is he brings everything to the table every single night, never takes a night off. Wade is a good defensive player, but mainly hes great at making his teammates better, and his literally unstoppable offensively. Like I said, a top 5 player in the league.

As for the weak East big men, I dont think thats an issue. Any decently coached team will run high screens and backdoor cuts all day on Amare and get guys buckets who arent considered good players. And thats not even taking into account that on the ball he would get scored on often by average players. Hes just a bad defenensive player.
Author:  FavreFan [ Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bill Simmons Thoughts on Vinny
Nas wrote:
I don't think he is as bad defensively as you do. I think the Suns didn't focus on defense and that rubbed off on everyone. If he comes here we will find out soon enough.

It's been great to have back and forth with someone without names being called. It's been a while but I recall you and I doing the same thing on pretty much every topic. We disagree on pretty much everything.


Yeah this is usually how it went from what I recall. Its been nice to talk sports with people who know what they are talking about. Most of the guys in my company dont know shit about sports, and the few that do dont know alot about the NBA.
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