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Krause to the HoF? https://mail.chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=57468 |
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Author: | HOVA [ Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:34 pm ] |
Post subject: | Krause to the HoF? |
Artis Gilmore's inclusion in the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame's Class of 2011 added an even more distinct Bulls feel to the already reported inductions of Dennis Rodman and Tex Winter. But there is one Bull who yet again didn't get the Hall call because, stunningly, he never even has been named a finalist for consideration: Jerry Krause. It's way past time for this oversight to change. Think what you want about how much blame Krause should take for the dynasty's end, even if myriad factors created more than enough blame to share. Ridicule him, if you feel you must, for lack of social graces or occasional verbal missteps. Then look up at the United Center rafters, where six championships banners hang. Or travel to Springfield, Mass., and stroll through the Hall of Fame itself. Phil Jackson is honored there. Krause hired him from the Continental Basketball Association to work on Doug Collins' staff. Scottie Pippen is too. Krause acquired his rights in that famous 1987 draft-day trade. Jerry Sloan, Wes Unseld and Earl Monroe are in. Krause helped draft them as a scout for the Baltimore Bullets. And now, come August, Rodman and Winter will be honored as well. Krause traded Will Perdue for the former and hired the latter, bringing the triangle offense Jackson has used for 11 championship teams into the NBA. "How many general managers have six championships?" Bulls Chairman Jerry Reinsdorf said by phone. "The first three championships, the only player who was on the team when Krause took over was (Michael) Jordan. Granted, he was Superman. But you still need a team. And then the second three-peat, Jordan and Pippen were the only two leftover from the first three-peat. So the guy obviously did a great job putting those teams together. "Phil Jackson was on his way out of basketball. Krause spotted him coaching the Albany Patroons. Phil wrote in one of his books he had given up any chance of getting back in the NBA. He was about to go to law school when Krause came after him. I also remember one of the things Jerry said to me when I was interviewing him for the job was he was going to get Tex Winter. I didn't know the triangle from a quadrangle. But look at all the great teams he built." Krause once told me the roster he inherited from Rod Thorn in March 1985 featured Jordan and 11 players he wanted elsewhere. So he went to work. In his 18 years with the Bulls, he drafted Charles Oakley, Horace Grant, B.J. Armstrong, Perdue, Toni Kukoc and Elton Brand, among others. He signed Ron Harper, John Paxson, Steve Kerr, Bill Wennington, Jud Buechler, Randy Brown, Robert Parish and Brian Williams, among others. And he traded for Pippen's draft rights, Bill Cartwright, Luc Longley and Rodman. Sure, Krause had misses. Tim Floyd wormed his way into Krause's good graces via fishing, an insult to Jackson, whom Krause and Reinsdorf still tried to convince to stay in 1998. Eddie Robinson and Ron Mercer were free-agent wastes. But the hits were far more frequent. "For Jerry to have brought Tex in at that time showed unbelievable foresight to how he envisioned the game to be played at this level with a great player like Michael," said Paxson, who succeeded Krause. Rodman led the NBA in rebounding three straight seasons from 1996-98, and his averages of 14.9, 16.1 and 15 are the three highest in franchise history. He also earned All-Defensive first-team honors in 1996. "The guys who rebound and defend are always the guys teammates and coaches love because it's a sacrifice," Paxson said of Rodman. Gilmore preceded Krause, averaging 19.3 points and 11.1 rebounds over seven seasons and 482 games. He ranks first in franchise history in field-goal percentage (.587), blocks (1,029), second in defensive rebounds (3,851) and sixth in points (9,288). Gilmore also had a successful ABA career for the Kentucky Colonels and five-season run with the Spurs, where he teamed with a rookie Paxson. "He was one of the big men who found a way to dominate the game," Paxson said. Krause did too in his own way. And with him turning 72 on Wednesday, it's time to change nicknames like "Crumbs" and "Sleuth" and make him merely "Hall of Famer, Class 2012." In 2004, Krause resigned from the voting panel and said he never would again set foot in the Hall of Fame until Winter earned induction. Winter is in. Krause should be too. |
Author: | Jbi11s [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:53 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
Idk... He took apart the team a couple years too early... Def gets props for Rodman trade, Pippen & Kukoc drafts, and building solid benches. Did he find Phil though? |
Author: | Rod [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:24 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
Jbi11s wrote: He took apart the team a couple years too early Is that a fact? Bulls fans seem to just assume that they would have just kept winning. In fact, I've heard more than a few Bulls fans talk as if it were a foregone conclusion that they would have won the two in the middle if Jordan had been playing. They forget that he was playing and he threw the ball into Nick Anderson's hands. Anyway, it was ungrateful Phil who was responsible for "taking the team apart". He wanted Krause's job as well as his own and he had Jordan in his camp. Let's not rewrite history. |
Author: | Douchebag [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:26 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
As long as Jordan is breathing, I don't think Krause will make it in. Jordan would probably pay off voters to prevent it, or walk out of the induction ceremony. Who would show up for Jerry's induction? Tim Floyd Toni Kukoc Eddy Curry/Tyson Chandler I think that's it. |
Author: | Douchebag [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:27 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Is that a fact? Bulls fans seem to just assume that they would have just kept winning. In fact, I've heard more than a few Bulls fans talk as if it were a foregone conclusion that they would have won the two in the middle if Jordan had been playing. They forget that he was playing and he threw the ball into Nick Anderson's hands. Jordan played like 15 games that season and had zero preseason or training camp. I think i'll give him a pass for that since he didn't play any basketball for 18 months. |
Author: | Rod [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:31 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
Douchebag wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Is that a fact? Bulls fans seem to just assume that they would have just kept winning. In fact, I've heard more than a few Bulls fans talk as if it were a foregone conclusion that they would have won the two in the middle if Jordan had been playing. They forget that he was playing and he threw the ball into Nick Anderson's hands. Jordan played like 15 games that season and had zero preseason or training camp. I think i'll give him a pass for that since he didn't play any basketball for 18 months. Didn't he score 55 against the Knicks in one of those games? I think he was ready to play. |
Author: | Douchebag [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:33 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Douchebag wrote: Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Is that a fact? Bulls fans seem to just assume that they would have just kept winning. In fact, I've heard more than a few Bulls fans talk as if it were a foregone conclusion that they would have won the two in the middle if Jordan had been playing. They forget that he was playing and he threw the ball into Nick Anderson's hands. Jordan played like 15 games that season and had zero preseason or training camp. I think i'll give him a pass for that since he didn't play any basketball for 18 months. Didn't he score 55 against the Knicks in one of those games? I think he was ready to play. He did show flashes in that shortened season, but he was not the same Michael until he came back the following year. And now I remember the play you're talking about. He didn't throw the ball into Nick Anderson's hands, Anderson came up from behind him and stole it. |
Author: | Rod [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:59 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
Douchebag wrote: He did show flashes in that shortened season, but he was not the same Michael until he came back the following year. And now I remember the play you're talking about. He didn't throw the ball into Nick Anderson's hands, Anderson came up from behind him and stole it. Yeah, Anderson stripped him from behind. My point is simply that the Bulls weren't an automatic winner. I think they won something like 17 in a row after Jordan came back in '94-'95. And some guys would tell you they'd be at their best with fresh legs if the could start their season 20 games prior to the playoffs. Krause is unfairly blamed for "taking the team apart". Phil and Jordan were making an unreasonable demand- get rid of Krause. That wasn't going to fly with Reinsdorf. Phil forgot where he came from and who helped him get where he was. |
Author: | Douchebag [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:13 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: My point is simply that the Bulls weren't an automatic winner. I think they won something like 17 in a row after Jordan came back in '94-'95. And some guys would tell you they'd be at their best with fresh legs if the could start their season 20 games prior to the playoffs. They went 13-4 when Jordan came back. What really killed that team was losing Horace Grant in the off-season before. They struggled to rebound the basketball and were completely overmatched by almost anybody. When they ran into the Magic in the second round, The "3-Headed Monster" had no chance. I can blame Krause for that. He failed to bring in a replacement for Bill Cartwright when he retired and they were stuck with Will Perdue as their starting center. He did swing that trade for Rodman though after the season, but Dennis had worn out his welcome in San Antonio, so they probably would have accepted a ball-rack in return. That wasn't a "genius" trade. |
Author: | Brick [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:19 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Is that a fact? Bulls fans seem to just assume that they would have just kept winning. In fact, I've heard more than a few Bulls fans talk as if it were a foregone conclusion that they would have won the two in the middle if Jordan had been playing. They forget that he was playing and he threw the ball into Nick Anderson's hands. It's a fact that the team was disbanded too early. The rebuilding effort was one of the biggest failures in sports history. You took the greatest basketball team in history with the greatest basketball player in history and turned it into Jason Caffey and Dickie Simpkins. The whole point was to avoid a long period of being really bad.The Bulls would still have been the favorites to win the title. Outside of Jordan's midseason comeback season the Bulls hadn't lost a playoff series in nearly a decade with MJ on the team. There is no reason to believe it would happen the next year. They would have added some helpful pieces and made another run. Even if they lost, it was still better than the alternative. Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Anyway, it was ungrateful Phil who was responsible for "taking the team apart". He wanted Krause's job as well as his own and he had Jordan in his camp. Let's not rewrite history. Krause did that to himself by being so difficult to work with. It's pretty clear that Jackson won this battle as he moved on and won more titles and the Bulls were terrible for years.A good GM keeps his all time great coach and player happy. Krause didn't. |
Author: | Ugueth Will Shiv You [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:22 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
I'm not even sure if I have a good reason for disagreeing, but inducting owners into the HoF just doesn't feel right to me. |
Author: | SteveSarley [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:48 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
Douchebag wrote: As long as Jordan is breathing, I don't think Krause will make it in. Jordan would probably pay off voters to prevent it, or walk out of the induction ceremony. Who would show up for Jerry's induction? Tim Floyd Toni Kukoc Eddy Curry/Tyson Chandler I think that's it. Although Krause is very hated here in Chicago, he gets a tremendous amount of respect from basketball insiders from around the country. |
Author: | Tall Midget [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:18 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
Douchebag wrote: As long as Jordan is breathing, I don't think Krause will make it in. Jordan would probably pay off voters to prevent it, or walk out of the induction ceremony. Who would show up for Jerry's induction? Tim Floyd Toni Kukoc Eddy Curry/Tyson Chandler I think that's it. Don't forget Dragan Tarlac, Dalibor Bagaric, and Kornel David. |
Author: | Douchebag [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:19 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
Tall Midget wrote: Douchebag wrote: As long as Jordan is breathing, I don't think Krause will make it in. Jordan would probably pay off voters to prevent it, or walk out of the induction ceremony. Who would show up for Jerry's induction? Tim Floyd Toni Kukoc Eddy Curry/Tyson Chandler I think that's it. Don't forget Dragan Tarlac, Dalibor Bagaric, and Kornel David. Now that would've been a great 3-Headed Monster. Could you find an uglier trio of NBA Centers to assemble? |
Author: | HOVA [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:39 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
Putting together two different rosters that 3peated shouldn't be frowned on. He also put together a 50+ win team that didn't include Grant and Jordan. Many people seem to forget that Jordan wasn't going to able to play the following season due to a cigar injury. Phil wanted to take a year off too (He knew the title window had closed). With Scottie being banged up and Rodman officially joining the circus the Bulls wouldn't be competing for a title. Of course they wouldn't have been as bad as they were with Mark Bryant and the gang. You could say he waited a year too long to try to rebuild and his "twin tower" project was short a couple of towers. His entire body of work for 15 years was second to none in the NBA. |
Author: | Jbi11s [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Anyway, it was ungrateful Phil who was responsible for "taking the team apart". He wanted Krause's job as well as his own and he had Jordan in his camp. Let's not rewrite history. I never said they'd keep winning titles. Agreed Phil probably had a hand in the breakup. As sports fans how are we going to ever know just how much of the blame goes to each person involved? As far as I know Phil just wanted more input on front office decisions. You guys saw some of those championship draft picks right? |
Author: | The Original Kid Cairo [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:09 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
Douchebag wrote: As long as Jordan is breathing, I don't think Krause will make it in. Jordan would probably pay off voters to prevent it, or walk out of the induction ceremony. Who would show up for Jerry's induction? Tim Floyd Toni Kukoc Eddy Curry/Tyson Chandler I think that's it. And Jay Williams. |
Author: | Bagels [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:15 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
Douchebag wrote: Could you find an uglier trio of NBA Centers to assemble? The Heat are sure working hard on it.. |
Author: | 312player [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:38 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote: Jbi11s wrote: He took apart the team a couple years too early Is that a fact? Bulls fans seem to just assume that they would have just kept winning. In fact, I've heard more than a few Bulls fans talk as if it were a foregone conclusion that they would have won the two in the middle if Jordan had been playing. They forget that he was playing and he threw the ball into Nick Anderson's hands. Anyway, it was ungrateful Phil who was responsible for "taking the team apart". He wanted Krause's job as well as his own and he had Jordan in his camp. Let's not rewrite history. yeah phil did want krause's job..and he should have gotten it.. reinsdorph chose krause over phil/m.j...then the bulls sucked every season until this season. |
Author: | Phil McCracken [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
I thought this was about sending him to Cooperstown for the scouting hes been doing with the Yankees |
Author: | Douchebag [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:41 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
312player wrote: then the bulls sucked every season until this season. Ok, you're reaching just a little bit here. Don't get me wrong, they were god awful under Tim Floyd and Bill Cartwright, but they won 50 games with Skiles, and were mediocre with Vinny. Let's not go crazy here. |
Author: | Phil McCracken [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:42 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
Douchebag wrote: 312player wrote: then the bulls sucked every season until this season. Ok, you're reaching just a little bit here. Don't get me wrong, they were god awful under Tim Floyd and Bill Cartwright, but they won 50 games with Skiles, and were mediocre with Vinny. Let's not go crazy here. Jerry did find Kornel David in Europe |
Author: | 312player [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:46 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
true...sucked probably too strong a word for a couple of those seasons...but was disappointing going from mj/phil /rings...to tim floyd...reinsdorph with that "organizations win championships" was a clear slap in the face to phil and mj...saying we built this and we can rebuild.. in reality he simply backed the wrong horse.. |
Author: | Jbi11s [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:29 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
312player wrote: true...sucked probably too strong a word for a couple of those seasons...but was disappointing going from mj/phil /rings...to tim floyd...reinsdorph with that "organizations win championships" was a clear slap in the face to phil and mj...saying we built this and we can rebuild.. in reality he simply backed the wrong horse.. They weren't a team with the talent to get past the second round until this year (Hopefully), but Skiles got a lot of a young core of players with no true stud. I always thought he got the royal shaft when it came his firing. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trade Thibs for anyone right now, but Skiles deserves a better job than the Bucks. |
Author: | Rod [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
HOVA wrote: He also put together a 50+ win team that didn't include Grant and Jordan. When? |
Author: | rogers park bryan [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:07 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
Ugueth Will Shiv You wrote: I'm not even sure if I have a good reason for disagreeing, but inducting owners into the HoF just doesn't feel right to me. No one even noticed this? Getting Grant and Pippen in the same draft, then putting all different guys around Jordan and Robin and winning 3 more titles He's in |
Author: | Brick [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
Ugueth Will Shiv You wrote: I'm not even sure if I have a good reason for disagreeing, but inducting owners into the HoF just doesn't feel right to me. Neither does inducting Kevin Martin and/or Salmons but that didn't stop you from doing it.
|
Author: | rogers park bryan [ Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:38 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Krause to the HoF? |
Jerry Krause is not an owner |
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