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What is the basis for graduation rate? Graduated with a degree within X years of coming on campus?

Hawkeye Vince wrote:

What is the basis for graduation rate? Graduated with a degree within X years of coming on campus?

Don't know... what's your point?

Doubt that the Big 10 would have an extrodinary amount of transfers playing sports with the amount of scholarships they give up. We aren't talking about the University of Cincinnati basketball program where JuCo transfers make up a big percentage.

A report released in fall 2000 by the provost's office indicated that A's and A minuses accounted for 50 percent of grades given in Fall Quarter 1998, whereas those grades made up only 35 percent during Fall Quarter 1986.

Agreed. But the most valuable outcome of an education at a higher institution is a diploma. Getting the kid to stay at a school where the diploma actually means something is the primary goal. If an institution cares about its student athlete... then grad rates are the most important stat in my opinion. Would you agree?

WACO, TEX. — Five Mid-American Conference football programs were recognized by the American Football Coaches Association for their outstanding graduation rates. Achieving a graduation rate above 70 percent were Ball State, Bowling Green, Miami, Ohio and Toledo. The MAC tied with the ACC and Big Ten with the most program’s honored in this year’s AFCA report.

Conference Breakdown: Atlantic Coast (5), Big 10 (5), Mid-American (5), Big East (4), Big 12 ( 4), Southeastern (4), Sun Belt (2), Conference USA (1), Independent (1), Mountain West (1), Pac-10 (1), Western Athletic (1).

Author:	My_name_1s_MUD [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:53 am ]
Post subject:	Graduation Rates
If a school is truly committed to the student-athlete (equal emphasis on both parts of this word), then you gotta admit that graduation rates are important. You'll never hear me get all superior on academics with regards to NU, but I am very proud of our grad rates. Below are some excerpts from The Bootleg Analysis of grad rates for football, but there is also info on basketball and baseball in the report as well. The report just came out for 2008 and I linked the rates for the B10 (see below): http://stanford.scout.com/2/748689.html "You have read many comments from recruits on the purported strength of numerous Division I-A schools in the academic support they offer their student-athletes. In reality, many schools near and far are shameful in their inability to graduate their players, including a widespread racial gap between student-athlete groups. We pull back the curtain with the newest data from the NCAA." Football Graduation Rates: Big Ten Northwestern 94% Penn St. 76% Illinois 73% Iowa 73% Michigan 73% Purdue 70% Indiana 67% Wisconsin 61% Ohio St. 53% Minnesota 49% Michigan St. 43% "It's no surprise to see Northwestern on top of the Big Ten. It is somewhat of a surprise to see Wisconsin straggling along in the lower tier. Wisconsin is a good school and could do better. And what's the story at Michigan State, anyway?" (their words, not mine).

Author:	My_name_1s_MUD [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:59 am ]
Post subject:
Top 10 and Bottom 10 Top 10 Football Grad Rates: Division I-A Navy 95% Northwestern 94% Stanford 93% Boston College 93% Duke 93% Notre Dame 93% Air Force 92% Vanderbilt 91% Wake Forest 90% Army 87% Bottom 10 Football Grad Rates: Division I-A San Jose St. 36% Georgia 41% Arizona 41% Texas 42% Michigan St. 43% Oklahoma 44% Hawaii 45% Central Florida 46% Temple 47% UAB 48% There is also a racial gap Grad Rates for African American Football Players: African American/Caucasian Difference Florida -22% Miami -25% Illinois -23% Michigan -36% Auburn -37% Missouri -34% Ohio St. -31% LSU -28% Alabama -32% Arkansas -53% Georgia Tech -47% Texas -37% Georgia -38%

Author:	Hawkeye Vince [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:09 am ]
Post subject:
What is the basis for graduation rate? Graduated with a degree within X years of coming on campus?

Author:	My_name_1s_MUD [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:11 am ]
Post subject:
Hawkeye Vince wrote: What is the basis for graduation rate? Graduated with a degree within X years of coming on campus? Don't know... what's your point?

Author:	Hawkeye Vince [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:12 am ]
Post subject:
My_name_1s_MUD wrote: Hawkeye Vince wrote: What is the basis for graduation rate? Graduated with a degree within X years of coming on campus? Don't know... what's your point? I remember there used to be a flaw with transfers and such - I was wondering if they 'fixed' that.

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Author:	Brick [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:39 am ]
Post subject:
The one thing this doesn't factor in is the graduation rate of the student population at large. Schools can have athletes graduating at a higher percentage than the general student population but still have a lower total rate than other schools. A quick google search turned up that the student population at NU graduates in the range of 90% to 93% so the graduation rate is on par with the student population. Now the student population at Purdue graduates in the range right around 70% so the graduation rate is on par with the student population. It wouldn't be fair to expect the Purdue football team to graduate at the same level of NU since for whatever reason that there is a higher graduation rate at NU. There are plenty of reasons why the student graduation rates are different but for whatever reason it is obvious that less people graduate from some of these other schools than when they start. Now Michigan State, Minnesota, and Ohio State definitely still fail in this regard and Wisconsin probably does too. To be clear, I'm not saying it's harder to graduate at those schools than it is at NW. I don't know how difficult it is to graduate from any school besides ones I've attended. I'm just saying that some schools have a different percentage of graduating players which would be out of control of the athletic department. Without starting an argument, it's not a shock that most of the top schools for graduation rates are private institutions.

Author:	My_name_1s_MUD [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:
An excellent topic, Rick, about State Schools vs. Private Schools. Why do you think that private institutions top this list? Its something I never thought about. Perhaps it goes to money. Any time a private institution needs to raise money, they raise tuition. State schools may have a tougher time getting this approved (don't most have to get this approved at the state government level?). So they rely on ticket and merchandise sales more than a private institution. So a state school perhaps places more pressure on the athletic program for revenues. That suggests that Penn St., Iowa, Michigan, and Purdue have something to be proud of. Good grad rates relative to their student population while maintaining a competitive in-state cost for education.

Author:	Brick [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:
Speaking in a purely academic sense and only talking about academic graduation rates also here are my thoughts. Private schools have advantages in the type of students they can take. A state school is required to have a certain percentage of in state students(or at least will always take them to justify state spending) so they have a more limited pool of applicants for 70-90% of their freshman class. NU can take the most qualified applicants for every spot. State schools can take the most qualified applicant from their home state for most spots and the most qualified applicant from whatever out of state spots remain. Grade inflation is more prevalent at certain schools. I can only speak from my experience, but a certain percentage of students in most classes I took got A's, B's, C's, and D's. The students that failed were dependent largely on how far from the mean that they were. From what I have read, grade inflation was a major concern at a lot of private schools. It's easier to graduate when grades are inflated. It doesn't mean you didn't get a good education but the higher your gpa, the less chance that you fail out. An excerpt I found here: http://media.www.dailynorthwestern.com/media/storage/paper853/news/2001/11/07/City/Grade.Inflation.Concerns.Nu.Other.Colleges-1907987.shtml Quote: A report released in fall 2000 by the provost's office indicated that A's and A minuses accounted for 50 percent of grades given in Fall Quarter 1998, whereas those grades made up only 35 percent during Fall Quarter 1986. I know that in the classes in my major that professors would be reviewed every semester by percentage of A's, B's, C's passed out. I even had one class where an incredibly high percentage of students got A's and B's(60%+ I believe). Let's just say that the next semester that you didn't want to be in that class. In most classes I had, they would do a combination of a curve and a scale based off of the top 2 or 3 in the class. It also points to the success of retention initiatives at schools. A low graduation rate is not a good thing for the general student population. Support services and resources are definitely better at some schools and I can only assume that private schools find investing in them to be more important. It may be because they rely so heavily on tuition. No state money so it's a bigger impact when they have someone dropout or even transfer. Now if we get back to the athletic program graduation rate, there are other problems. One of which is that most schools take players who are not really college ready. NU probably takes a very low percentage of students who are not ready for the rigors of the NU curriculum. I know of a few players that were there during my time at Purdue that were there to play football and not too worried about a degree. It all comes down to a balance of winning and the student athlete. Most schools fall in the middle. Some teams put the student athlete and winning on the same level. Some teams have winning as the top priority and then the student athlete as a lower priority. But just remember one thing, no coach was ever fired for not graduating players.

Author:	My_name_1s_MUD [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:
Agreed. But the most valuable outcome of an education at a higher institution is a diploma. Getting the kid to stay at a school where the diploma actually means something is the primary goal. If an institution cares about its student athlete... then grad rates are the most important stat in my opinion. Would you agree?

Author:	Brick [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:
My_name_1s_MUD wrote: Agreed. But the most valuable outcome of an education at a higher institution is a diploma. Getting the kid to stay at a school where the diploma actually means something is the primary goal. If an institution cares about its student athlete... then grad rates are the most important stat in my opinion. Would you agree? I agree that it should be that way in a perfect world. Graduation rates are important and many schools are failing in that regard. I just think that in the real world, wins and losses, matter more to most schools. T-shirts, donations, tv contracts, and corporate sponsors can have major impacts on both the athletic and academic sides. I hope Purdue keeps up a similar graduation rate or improves it but if you gave me the choice of a 90% graduation rate or a Rose Bowl victory, I would choose the Rose Bowl victory.

Author:	My_name_1s_MUD [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:
Not me... if all I cared about was winning, I'd just watch the NFL. I think the administration and the athletic department owe the student athlete something of value for putting his body on the line every week. Since we can't pay them, they owe them an education. The disparity between black football player graduation rates and white at OSU, Michigan and Illinois is shameful.

Author:	Brick [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:
I'm not saying all I care about is winning, but as long as a team is graduating at a rate similar to the general student population I'm fine with it.

Author:	NIU_Huskie [ Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:
The MAC is well known for its student-athlete graduation rates comparable to the other top conferences. CUSA is horrible on the field and in the classroom. http://www.mac-sports.com/ViewArticle.d ... LID=898884 May 22, 2007 Quote: WACO, TEX. — Five Mid-American Conference football programs were recognized by the American Football Coaches Association for their outstanding graduation rates. Achieving a graduation rate above 70 percent were Ball State, Bowling Green, Miami, Ohio and Toledo. The MAC tied with the ACC and Big Ten with the most program’s honored in this year’s AFCA report. Quote: Conference Breakdown: Atlantic Coast (5), Big 10 (5), Mid-American (5), Big East (4), Big 12 ( 4), Southeastern (4), Sun Belt (2), Conference USA (1), Independent (1), Mountain West (1), Pac-10 (1), Western Athletic (1).

Author:	Hawkeye Vince [ Mon May 05, 2008 7:56 am ]
Post subject:
Are they accredited?

Author:	My_name_1s_MUD [ Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:56 am ]
Post subject:
Great points Rick. They do have that info for all BCS schools (not just for B10) Biggest Difference in Grad Rates Between Football Players and All Students BCS Conference Schools (Difference of 15% or more) Football Players All Students Difference Cal 52% 87% -35% Georgia 41% 73% -32% Texas 42% 74% -32% UCLA 56% 88% -32% Michigan St. 43% 72% -29% USC 57% 82% -25% Virginia 68% 92% -24% Georgia Tech 51% 74% -23% Rutgers 55% 72% -17% Arizona 41% 57% -16% Wisconsin 61% 77% -16% Mich St. and Wisco show pretty poorly

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