It is currently Sun Feb 23, 2025 6:06 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:29 pm
Posts: 56748
pizza_Place: Lou Malnati's
https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publicat ... ersal.html

Quote:
After watching the second televised debate between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton in October 2016—a battle between the first female candidate nominated by a major party and an opponent who’d just been caught on tape bragging about sexually assaulting women—Maria Guadalupe, an associate professor of economics and political science at INSEAD, had an idea. Millions had tuned in to watch a man face off against a woman for the first set of co-ed presidential debates in American history. But how would their perceptions change, she wondered, if the genders of the candidates were switched? She pictured an actress playing Trump, replicating his words, gestures, body language, and tone verbatim, while an actor took on Clinton’s role in the same way. What would the experiment reveal about male and female communication styles, and the differing standards by which we unconsciously judge them?

Guadalupe reached out to Joe Salvatore, a Steinhardt clinical associate professor of educational theatre who specializes in ethnodrama—a method of adapting interviews, field notes, journal entries, and other print and media artifacts into a script to be performed as a play. Together, they developed Her Opponent, a production featuring actors performing excerpts from each of the three debates exactly as they happened—but with the genders switched. Salvatore cast fellow educational theatre faculty Rachel Whorton to play “Brenda King,” a female version of Trump, and Daryl Embry to play “Jonathan Gordon,” a male version of Hillary Clinton, and coached them as they learned the candidates’ words and gestures. A third actor, Andy Wagner, would play the moderator in all three debates, with the performances livestreamed. Andrew Freiband, a professor in the Department of Film/Animation/Video at the Rhode Island School of Design, provided the video design. (Watch footage from a Her Opponent rehearsal below.)

Salvatore says he and Guadalupe began the project assuming that the gender inversion would confirm what they’d each suspected watching the real-life debates: that Trump’s aggression—his tendency to interrupt and attack—would never be tolerated in a woman, and that Clinton’s competence and preparedness would seem even more convincing coming from a man.

But the lessons about gender that emerged in rehearsal turned out to be much less tidy. What was Jonathan Gordon smiling about all the time? And didn’t he seem a little stiff, tethered to rehearsed statements at the podium, while Brenda King, plainspoken and confident, freely roamed the stage? Which one would audiences find more likeable?

The two sold-out performances of Her Opponent took place on the night of Saturday, January 28, just a week after President Trump’s inauguration and the ensuing Women’s March on Washington. “The atmosphere among the standing-room-only crowd, which appeared mostly drawn from academic circles, was convivial, but also a little anxious,” Alexis Soloski, a New York Times reporter who attended the first performance, observed. “Most of the people there had watched the debates assuming that Ms. Clinton couldn’t lose. This time they watched trying to figure out how Mr. Trump could have won.”

Inside the evening’s program were two surveys for each audience member to fill out—one for before the show, with questions about their impressions of the real-life Trump–Clinton debates, and another for afterward, asking about their reactions to the King–Gordon restaging. Each performance was also followed by a discussion, with Salvatore bringing a microphone around to those eager to comment on what they had seen.

“I’ve never had an audience be so articulate about something so immediately after the performance,” Salvatore says of the cathartic discussions. “For me, watching people watch it was so informative. People across the board were surprised that their expectations about what they were going to experience were upended.”

Many were shocked to find that they couldn’t seem to find in Jonathan Gordon what they had admired in Hillary Clinton—or that Brenda King’s clever tactics seemed to shine in moments where they’d remembered Donald Trump flailing or lashing out. For those Clinton voters trying to make sense of the loss, it was by turns bewildering and instructive, raising as many questions about gender performance and effects of sexism as it answered.


Quote:
Based on the conversations after the performances, it sounded like audience members had their beliefs rattled in a similar way. What were some themes that emerged from their responses?
We heard a lot of “now I understand how this happened”—meaning how Trump won the election. People got upset. There was a guy two rows in front of me who was literally holding his head in his hands, and the person with him was rubbing his back. The simplicity of Trump’s message became easier for people to hear when it was coming from a woman—that was a theme. One person said, “I’m just so struck by how precise Trump’s technique is.” Another—a musical theater composer, actually—said that Trump created “hummable lyrics,” while Clinton talked a lot, and everything she was was true and factual, but there was no “hook” to it. Another theme was about not liking either candidate—you know, “I wouldn’t vote for either one.” Someone said that Jonathan Gordon [the male Hillary Clinton] was “really punchable” because of all the smiling. And a lot of people were just very surprised by the way it upended their expectations about what they thought they would feel or experience. There was someone who described Brenda King [the female Donald Trump] as his Jewish aunt who would take care of him, even though he might not like his aunt. Someone else described her as the middle school principal who you don’t like, but you know is doing good things for you.


A clip of the performance is in the article. I suggest you watch it.

I find pleasure in this. "There was a guy two rows in front of me who was literally holding his head in his hands, and the person with him was rubbing his back." I'm imagining these yuppie shitlibs with their Male Tears mugs and their Macklemore hair, and as they see Hillary Clinton's words and ideas from a man, they finally see themselves with their own eyes, and they see how ineffective and detestable they always were, and they cry, and they should.

_________________
Molly Lambert wrote:
The future holds the possibility to be great or terrible, and since it has not yet occurred it remains simultaneously both.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:17 pm
Posts: 8033
pizza_Place: Rosati's
A wholly worthwhile exercise.

_________________
Not a mult.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:02 pm
Posts: 11735
pizza_Place: Angelo's Pizza in Downers Grove
Does it prove that Trump message won the election, or that most liberals will vote for a woman no matter what.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 11:10 am
Posts: 42094
Location: Rock Ridge (splendid!)
pizza_Place: Charlie Fox's / Paisano's
Quote:
Joe Salvatore, a Steinhardt clinical associate professor of educational theatre who specializes in ethnodrama—a method of adapting interviews, field notes, journal entries, and other print and media artifacts into a script to be performed as a play


Hockey Gay getting the business from leash in some backwoods swamp is 100x less gay than that.

_________________
Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:29 pm
Posts: 56748
pizza_Place: Lou Malnati's
Big Chicagoan wrote:
Does it prove that Trump message won the election, or that most liberals will vote for a woman no matter what.

Good question! What it does prove is that Hillary Clinton, cold and boring and always sneering behind a smile, without the brand equity of "Hillary Clinton" is just Ezra Klein, and everyone wants to punch Ezra Klein.

_________________
Molly Lambert wrote:
The future holds the possibility to be great or terrible, and since it has not yet occurred it remains simultaneously both.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:57 pm
Posts: 93636
Location: To the left of my post
The flaw with this and any "Hillary lost because she was a woman" is she built a lot of her campaign around her gender. I'm with her! Glass ceiling. Give your daughters a role model.

_________________
You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:24 pm
Posts: 17331
pizza_Place: Pequods
I saw a 2 minute snippet of the debate and my biggest take away was that Hillary's largest problem as an ability to connect to voters. You had a largely fed up electorate and Hillary really didn't offer them anything.

Trump had no business winning this election and any random Democrat congressman or governor would've won this election versus him as they would've been able to connect to voters in a way Hillary never could. Joe Biden would've been their best bet. Do you think he would've lost the rust belt states? Not a chance.

_________________
“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:24 pm
Posts: 17331
pizza_Place: Pequods
I also have to say that I commend the audience and the organizers for having an open enough mind that they came away from it with a completely different takeaway than what was expected.

_________________
“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:02 pm
Posts: 11735
pizza_Place: Angelo's Pizza in Downers Grove
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
I saw a 2 minute snippet of the debate and my biggest take away was that Hillary's largest problem as an ability to connect to voters. You had a largely fed up electorate and Hillary really didn't offer them anything.

Trump had no business winning this election and any random Democrat congressman or governor would've won this election versus him as they would've been able to connect to voters in a way Hillary never could. Joe Biden would've been their best bet. Do you think he would've lost the rust belt states? Not a chance.


Especially after they found out his sons were sharing a wife!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:24 pm
Posts: 17331
pizza_Place: Pequods
Big Chicagoan wrote:
Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
I saw a 2 minute snippet of the debate and my biggest take away was that Hillary's largest problem as an ability to connect to voters. You had a largely fed up electorate and Hillary really didn't offer them anything.

Trump had no business winning this election and any random Democrat congressman or governor would've won this election versus him as they would've been able to connect to voters in a way Hillary never could. Joe Biden would've been their best bet. Do you think he would've lost the rust belt states? Not a chance.


Especially after they found out his sons were sharing a wife!

That guarantees all of the Marty Brodeur fans in NJ will vote for him.

_________________
“When I walked in this morning, and saw the flag was at half mast, I thought 'alright another bureaucrat ate it.'" - Ron Swanson


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:42 pm 
Offline
100000 CLUB
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:06 pm
Posts: 81466
pizza_Place: 773-684-2222
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The flaw with this and any "Hillary lost because she was a woman" is she built a lot of her campaign around her gender. I'm with her! Glass ceiling. Give your daughters a role model.


But she still tried to carry herself like a "man" the same way she did in 2008 because she thought that's what she had to do.

Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
I saw a 2 minute snippet of the debate and my biggest take away was that Hillary's largest problem as an ability to connect to voters. You had a largely fed up electorate and Hillary really didn't offer them anything.

Trump had no business winning this election and any random Democrat congressman or governor would've won this election versus him as they would've been able to connect to voters in a way Hillary never could. Joe Biden would've been their best bet. Do you think he would've lost the rust belt states? Not a chance.


He beat nearly 20 Republicans too. At least 1 of them would have been a good president and all but Ted Cruz were probably better than Trump. Trump sold himself and people ate it up.

I agree with you on Biden. In some ways he's very similar to Trump in his delivery.

_________________
Be well

GO BEARS!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:02 pm
Posts: 11735
pizza_Place: Angelo's Pizza in Downers Grove
Nas wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The flaw with this and any "Hillary lost because she was a woman" is she built a lot of her campaign around her gender. I'm with her! Glass ceiling. Give your daughters a role model.


But she still tried to carry herself like a "man" the same way she did in 2008 because she thought that's what she had to do.

Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
I saw a 2 minute snippet of the debate and my biggest take away was that Hillary's largest problem as an ability to connect to voters. You had a largely fed up electorate and Hillary really didn't offer them anything.

Trump had no business winning this election and any random Democrat congressman or governor would've won this election versus him as they would've been able to connect to voters in a way Hillary never could. Joe Biden would've been their best bet. Do you think he would've lost the rust belt states? Not a chance.


He beat nearly 20 Republicans too. At least 1 of them would have been a good president and all but Ted Cruz were probably better than Trump. Trump sold himself and people ate it up.

I agree with you on Biden. In some ways he's very similar to Trump in his delivery.


Would have been great to see two candidates who didn't practice prior to debates and just winged it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:31 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 80533
Location: Rogers Park, USA
pizza_Place: JB Alberto's
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The flaw with this and any "Hillary lost because she was a woman" is she built a lot of her campaign around her gender. I'm with her! Glass ceiling. Give your daughters a role model.


You're hitting something there. It's pretty phony to run on the fact you're a woman and then complain about losing because you're a woman when you would have been more than happy to win for no reason other than being a woman.

_________________
Freedom is our Strength.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:35 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:45 pm
Posts: 38779
Location: Lovetron
pizza_Place: Malnati's
Curious Hair wrote:
Big Chicagoan wrote:
Does it prove that Trump message won the election, or that most liberals will vote for a woman no matter what.

Good question! What it does prove is that Hillary Clinton, cold and boring and always sneering behind a smile, without the brand equity of "Hillary Clinton" is just Ezra Klein, and everyone wants to punch Ezra Klein.


She is really unable to hide her contempt for us peasants.

_________________
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
The victims are the American People and the Republic itself.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:32 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:00 am
Posts: 80533
Location: Rogers Park, USA
pizza_Place: JB Alberto's
Nas wrote:
But she still tried to carry herself like a "man" the same way she did in 2008 because she thought that's what she had to do.


That's a common approach by women of her age. And that's not a criticism. Those women were real feminists who had actual barriers and had to figure out how to navigate them. There were no real role models, at least not in large numbers. They had to make shit up themselves. They saw how powerful men acted and figured that they should emulate that behavior.

But men and women aren't the same. In fact, no two people are the same. There may be a joke that Boilermaker Rick, just for example, could sell, where if I made the same joke I might come off as an asshole. Or vice versa. When a woman is trying to act the way she perceives that men act- and that's different from the way men actually do act- it can be very off-putting. And not just to men. I think there are MANY younger women who are put off by it as well.

I've worked for a couple Baby Boomer women and both experiences were miserable. They weren't so much interested in doing a job as they were in promoting their idea of themselves as powerful females. And I've supervised Gen-X and Millennial women in management positions and they have managed people in a completely different style. They were much more comfortable in their own skin, with who they are, and with their capabilities. And I know they owe something to the Boomer women. But that doesn't change reality. Moses never got to see the Promised Land either.

_________________
Freedom is our Strength.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group