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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:59 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
...make 1 million new government jobs for no good reasons besides giving people work...


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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:18 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
You are just making all of these emotional pleas that aren't relevant.

I don't want anyone to lose health insurance. I don't want to lose mine either and instead rely on the government to provide it to me in the hugely efficient and quality way they do so many other things.

If you had any sort of rebuttal you would avoid buzzword filled uselessness like "white privilege".



Now it's a useless buzzword. Sounds good.

Your current insurance is already terribly inefficient. We spend more on medical than any country in the world. You are saying that providing insurance to more people may have inconvenienced you, so it's not preferable to Trump throwing millions off of insurance.

Getting back to your initial statement that Trump will do less damage that Sanders. That include environmental issues? Ignoring climate change the next 4 years is no big deal?

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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:24 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
You are just making all of these emotional pleas that aren't relevant.

I don't want anyone to lose health insurance. I don't want to lose mine either and instead rely on the government to provide it to me in the hugely efficient and quality way they do so many other things.

If you had any sort of rebuttal you would avoid buzzword filled uselessness like "white privilege".



Now it's a useless buzzword. Sounds good.

Your current insurance is already terribly inefficient. We spend more on medical than any country in the world. You are saying that providing insurance to more people may have inconvenienced you, so it's not preferable to Trump throwing millions off of insurance.

Getting back to your initial statement that Trump will do less damage that Sanders. That include environmental issues? Ignoring climate change the next 4 years is no big deal?
We also spend the most on the military and we are near the top in spending on K-12 education so consider me skeptical that health spending goes down with the government taking over.

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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:40 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
You are just making all of these emotional pleas that aren't relevant.

I don't want anyone to lose health insurance. I don't want to lose mine either and instead rely on the government to provide it to me in the hugely efficient and quality way they do so many other things.

If you had any sort of rebuttal you would avoid buzzword filled uselessness like "white privilege".



Now it's a useless buzzword. Sounds good.

Your current insurance is already terribly inefficient. We spend more on medical than any country in the world. You are saying that providing insurance to more people may have inconvenienced you, so it's not preferable to Trump throwing millions off of insurance.

Getting back to your initial statement that Trump will do less damage that Sanders. That include environmental issues? Ignoring climate change the next 4 years is no big deal?
We also spend the most on the military and we are near the top in spending on K-12 education so consider me skeptical that health spending goes down with the government taking over.


Health spending is going to go up either way regardless. Kicking millions of people off insurance means they will go to the emergency room. Not sure how that's going to help keep down costs.

Do you not think ignoring climate change and pulling out of international agreements will be very difficult actions to reverse?

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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:49 pm 
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Rick, it's okay not to like Bernie Sanders. To simply pass his platform off as "free stuff for all" makes you sound out of touch and not really aware of many of the wealth inequality issues we face today. "Free stuff for all" is apparently okay by you as long as it is millionaires and billionaires who are getting the welfare.

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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:51 pm 
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WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Health spending is going to go up either way regardless. Kicking millions of people off insurance means they will go to the emergency room. Not sure how that's going to help keep down costs.
Well, I think the current bill is going to have to be redone.

WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Do you not think ignoring climate change and pulling out of international agreements will be very difficult actions to reverse?
I think technology will solve climate change a lot quicker than governments will especially. Do you mean international agreements on climate change? Those are almost all a complete joke.

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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:40 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Health spending is going to go up either way regardless. Kicking millions of people off insurance means they will go to the emergency room. Not sure how that's going to help keep down costs.
Well, I think the current bill is going to have to be redone.

WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Do you not think ignoring climate change and pulling out of international agreements will be very difficult actions to reverse?
I think technology will solve climate change a lot quicker than governments will especially. Do you mean international agreements on climate change? Those are almost all a complete joke.


The Paris Accord for one. Technology will solve it is basically operating on faith. It's fine to do anything to the environment because technology will solve the problem. This means you believe that no lasting damage will occur from Trump basically saying do whatever to the environment.

We already have a precedent on government solving an environmental crisis with the Ozone layer.

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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:41 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I think technology will solve climate change a lot quicker than governments will especially. Do you mean international agreements on climate change? Those are almost all a complete joke.


Climate Change Denier!!!!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:44 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I think technology will solve climate change a lot quicker than governments will especially.

But what if those in charge suppress said technology?


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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:18 pm 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Rick, it's okay not to like Bernie Sanders. To simply pass his platform off as "free stuff for all" makes you sound out of touch and not really aware of many of the wealth inequality issues we face today. "Free stuff for all" is apparently okay by you as long as it is millionaires and billionaires who are getting the welfare.



Well said sir

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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:52 am 
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisladd/ ... ba8611186a

Election 2016 has prompted a wave of head-scratching on the left. Counties Trump won by staggering margins will be among the hardest hit by the repeal of the Affordable Care Act. Millions of white voters who supported Donald Trump stand to lose their access to health coverage because of their vote.

Individual profiles of Trump voters feed this baffling narrative. A Washington Post story described the experience of Clyde Graham, a long-unemployed coal worker who depends on the ACA for access to health care. He voted for Trump knowing it might cost him his health insurance out of his hope of capturing the great white unicorn – a new job in the mines. His stance is not unusual.

Why are economically struggling blue collar voters rejecting a party that offers to expand public safety net programs? The reality is that the bulk of needy white voters are not interested in the public safety net. They want to restore their access to an older safety net, one much more generous, dignified, and stable than the public system – the one most well-employed voters still enjoy.

When it seems like people are voting against their interests, I have probably failed to understand their interests. We cannot begin to understand Election 2016 until we acknowledge the power and reach of socialism for white people.

Americans with good jobs live in a socialist welfare state more generous, cushioned and expensive to the public than any in Europe. Like a European system, we pool our resources to share the burden of catastrophic expenses, but unlike European models, our approach doesn’t cover everyone.

Like most of my neighbors I have a good job in the private sector. Ask my neighbors about the cost of the welfare programs they enjoy and you will be greeted by baffled stares. All that we have is “earned” and we perceive no need for government support. Nevertheless, taxpayers fund our retirement saving, health insurance, primary, secondary, and advanced education, daycare, commuter costs, and even our mortgages at a staggering public cost. Socialism for white people is all-enveloping, benevolent, invisible, and insulated by the nasty, deceptive notion that we have earned our benefits by our own hand.

My family’s generous health insurance costs about $20,000 a year, of which we pay only $4,000 in premiums. The rest is subsidized by taxpayers. You read that right. Like virtually everyone else on my block who isn’t old enough for Medicare or employed by the government, my family is covered by private health insurance subsidized by taxpayers at a stupendous public cost. Well over 90% of white households earning over the white median income (about $75,000) carried health insurance even before the Affordable Care Act. White socialism is nice if you can get it.

Companies can deduct the cost of their employees’ health insurance. That results in roughly a $400 billion annual transfer of funds from state and federal treasuries to insurers to provide coverage for the Americans least in need of assistance. This is one of the defining features of white socialism, the most generous benefits go to those who are best suited to provide for themselves. Those benefits are not limited to health care.

When I buy a house for my family, or a vacation home, the interest I pay on the mortgage is deductible up to a million dollars of debt. That costs the treasury $70 billion a year, about what we spend to fund the food stamp program. My private retirement savings are also tax deductible, diverting another $75 billion from government revenues. Other tax preferences carve out special treatment for child care expenses, college savings, commuter costs (your suburban tax credit), local taxes, and other exemptions.

By funding government programs with tax credits rather than spending, we have created an enormous social safety net that grows ever more generous as household incomes rise. It is important to note, though, that you need not be wealthy to participate. All you need to gain access to socialism for white people is a good corporate or government job. That fact helps explain how this welfare system took shape sixty years ago, why it was originally (and still overwhelmingly) white, and why white Rust Belt voters showed far more enthusiasm for Donald Trump than for Bernie Sanders. White voters are not interested in democratic socialism. They want to restore their access to a more generous and dignified program of white socialism.

In the years after World War II, the western democracies that had not already done so adopted universal social safety net programs. These included health care, retirement and other benefits. President Truman introduced his plan for universal health coverage in 1945. It would have worked much like Social Security, imposing a tax to fund a universal insurance pool. His plan went nowhere.

Instead, nine years later Congress laid the foundations of the social welfare system we enjoy today. They rejected Truman’s idea of universal private coverage in favor of a program controlled by employers while publicly funded through tax breaks. This plan gave corporations new leverage in negotiating with unions, handing the companies a publicly-financed benefit they could distribute at their discretion.

No one stated their intention to create a social welfare program for white people, specifically white men, but they didn’t need to. By handing control to employers at a time when virtually every good paying job was reserved for white men the program silently accomplished that goal.

White socialism played a vital political role, as blue collar factory workers and executives all pooled their resources for mutual support and protection, binding them together culturally and politically. Higher income workers certainly benefited more, but almost all the benefits of this system from health care to pensions originally accrued to white families through their male breadwinners. Blue collar or white collar, their fates were largely united by their racial identity and employment status.

Until the decades after the Civil Rights Acts, very few women or minorities gained direct access to this system. Unsurprisingly, this was the era in which white attitudes about the social safety net and the Democratic Party began to pivot. Thanks to this silent racial legacy, socialism for white people retains its disproportionately white character, though that has weakened. Racial boundaries are now less explicit and more permeable, but still today white families are twice as likely as African-Americans to have access to private health insurance. Two thirds of white children are covered by private health insurance, while barely over one third of black children enjoy this benefit.

White socialism has had a stark impact on the rest of the social safety net, creating a two-tiered system. Visit a county hospital to witness an example. American socialism for “everyone else” is marked by crowded conditions, neglected facilities, professionalism compromised by political patronage, and long waits for care. Fall outside the comfortable bubble of white socialism, and one faces a world of frightening indifference.

When Democrats respond to job losses with an offer to expand the public safety net, blue collar voters cringe and rebel. They are not remotely interested in sharing the public social safety net experienced by minority groups and the poorest white families. Meanwhile well-employed and affluent voters, ensconced in their system of white socialism, leverage all the power at their disposal to block any dilution of their expensive public welfare benefits. Something has to break.

We may one day recognize that we are all “in it together” and find ways to build a more stable, sensible welfare system. That will not happen unless we acknowledge the painful and sometimes embarrassing legacy that brought us to this place. Absent that reckoning, unspoken realities will continue to warp our political calculations, frustrating our best hopes and stunting our potential.

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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:07 am 
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leashyourkids wrote:
Rick, it's okay not to like Bernie Sanders. To simply pass his platform off as "free stuff for all" makes you sound out of touch and not really aware of many of the wealth inequality issues we face today. "Free stuff for all" is apparently okay by you as long as it is millionaires and billionaires who are getting the welfare.
I missed this yesterday.

I just don't view the things binary like you do. It isn't a choice between "Free puppies for all" and wanting the millionaires and billionaires to pay their fair share. I mean, hypothetically, if we did everything I referenced by Bernie it would bring upon an era of government control and reliance that we have never seen in this country and it would be very painful to undo. For example, how do you suddenly tell parents that the government isn't going to give them free child care? Parents will build their lives around this benefit. Parents will budget accordingly knowing that they don't have that type of expense. Now extend that to college, free healthcare, and then compound it with the government adding 1 million jobs with no real purpose. The system basically would just spend until a systematic failure which then results in an abrubt economic catastrophe where the answer would be to cut or eliminate those programs at the worst possible time as people would be struggling in general.

I mean, right now, we are struggling to fund Social Security, Medicaid pays so poorly that our healthcare system would virtually shut down if they had to sustain it on those payments, we currently have a massive debt and the answer seems to be to let future generations figure it out just like our parents did.

I do think Bernie had some good ideas but unfortunately he choose the populist, legacy defining, dreamworld of a campaign that still has people fired up for him after a career of very little accomplishments. He built a cult following and that is great but if he really wanted to make a difference he would have ran a campaign that wasn't so much about "ideas" as that only turned him into a folk hero but ultimately did little to accomplish anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:32 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisladd/2017/03/13/unspeakable-realities-block-universal-health-coverage-in-the-us/#75ba8611186a

Election 2016 has prompted a wave of head-scratching on the left. Counties Trump won by staggering margins will be among the hardest hit by the repeal of the Affordable Care Act. Millions of white voters who supported Donald Trump stand to lose their access to health coverage because of their vote.

Individual profiles of Trump voters feed this baffling narrative. A Washington Post story described the experience of Clyde Graham, a long-unemployed coal worker who depends on the ACA for access to health care. He voted for Trump knowing it might cost him his health insurance out of his hope of capturing the great white unicorn – a new job in the mines. His stance is not unusual.

Why are economically struggling blue collar voters rejecting a party that offers to expand public safety net programs? The reality is that the bulk of needy white voters are not interested in the public safety net. They want to restore their access to an older safety net, one much more generous, dignified, and stable than the public system – the one most well-employed voters still enjoy.

When it seems like people are voting against their interests, I have probably failed to understand their interests. We cannot begin to understand Election 2016 until we acknowledge the power and reach of socialism for white people.

Americans with good jobs live in a socialist welfare state more generous, cushioned and expensive to the public than any in Europe. Like a European system, we pool our resources to share the burden of catastrophic expenses, but unlike European models, our approach doesn’t cover everyone.

Like most of my neighbors I have a good job in the private sector. Ask my neighbors about the cost of the welfare programs they enjoy and you will be greeted by baffled stares. All that we have is “earned” and we perceive no need for government support. Nevertheless, taxpayers fund our retirement saving, health insurance, primary, secondary, and advanced education, daycare, commuter costs, and even our mortgages at a staggering public cost. Socialism for white people is all-enveloping, benevolent, invisible, and insulated by the nasty, deceptive notion that we have earned our benefits by our own hand.

My family’s generous health insurance costs about $20,000 a year, of which we pay only $4,000 in premiums. The rest is subsidized by taxpayers. You read that right. Like virtually everyone else on my block who isn’t old enough for Medicare or employed by the government, my family is covered by private health insurance subsidized by taxpayers at a stupendous public cost. Well over 90% of white households earning over the white median income (about $75,000) carried health insurance even before the Affordable Care Act. White socialism is nice if you can get it.

Companies can deduct the cost of their employees’ health insurance. That results in roughly a $400 billion annual transfer of funds from state and federal treasuries to insurers to provide coverage for the Americans least in need of assistance. This is one of the defining features of white socialism, the most generous benefits go to those who are best suited to provide for themselves. Those benefits are not limited to health care.

When I buy a house for my family, or a vacation home, the interest I pay on the mortgage is deductible up to a million dollars of debt. That costs the treasury $70 billion a year, about what we spend to fund the food stamp program. My private retirement savings are also tax deductible, diverting another $75 billion from government revenues. Other tax preferences carve out special treatment for child care expenses, college savings, commuter costs (your suburban tax credit), local taxes, and other exemptions.

By funding government programs with tax credits rather than spending, we have created an enormous social safety net that grows ever more generous as household incomes rise. It is important to note, though, that you need not be wealthy to participate. All you need to gain access to socialism for white people is a good corporate or government job. That fact helps explain how this welfare system took shape sixty years ago, why it was originally (and still overwhelmingly) white, and why white Rust Belt voters showed far more enthusiasm for Donald Trump than for Bernie Sanders. White voters are not interested in democratic socialism. They want to restore their access to a more generous and dignified program of white socialism.

In the years after World War II, the western democracies that had not already done so adopted universal social safety net programs. These included health care, retirement and other benefits. President Truman introduced his plan for universal health coverage in 1945. It would have worked much like Social Security, imposing a tax to fund a universal insurance pool. His plan went nowhere.

Instead, nine years later Congress laid the foundations of the social welfare system we enjoy today. They rejected Truman’s idea of universal private coverage in favor of a program controlled by employers while publicly funded through tax breaks. This plan gave corporations new leverage in negotiating with unions, handing the companies a publicly-financed benefit they could distribute at their discretion.

No one stated their intention to create a social welfare program for white people, specifically white men, but they didn’t need to. By handing control to employers at a time when virtually every good paying job was reserved for white men the program silently accomplished that goal.

White socialism played a vital political role, as blue collar factory workers and executives all pooled their resources for mutual support and protection, binding them together culturally and politically. Higher income workers certainly benefited more, but almost all the benefits of this system from health care to pensions originally accrued to white families through their male breadwinners. Blue collar or white collar, their fates were largely united by their racial identity and employment status.

Until the decades after the Civil Rights Acts, very few women or minorities gained direct access to this system. Unsurprisingly, this was the era in which white attitudes about the social safety net and the Democratic Party began to pivot. Thanks to this silent racial legacy, socialism for white people retains its disproportionately white character, though that has weakened. Racial boundaries are now less explicit and more permeable, but still today white families are twice as likely as African-Americans to have access to private health insurance. Two thirds of white children are covered by private health insurance, while barely over one third of black children enjoy this benefit.

White socialism has had a stark impact on the rest of the social safety net, creating a two-tiered system. Visit a county hospital to witness an example. American socialism for “everyone else” is marked by crowded conditions, neglected facilities, professionalism compromised by political patronage, and long waits for care. Fall outside the comfortable bubble of white socialism, and one faces a world of frightening indifference.

When Democrats respond to job losses with an offer to expand the public safety net, blue collar voters cringe and rebel. They are not remotely interested in sharing the public social safety net experienced by minority groups and the poorest white families. Meanwhile well-employed and affluent voters, ensconced in their system of white socialism, leverage all the power at their disposal to block any dilution of their expensive public welfare benefits. Something has to break.

We may one day recognize that we are all “in it together” and find ways to build a more stable, sensible welfare system. That will not happen unless we acknowledge the painful and sometimes embarrassing legacy that brought us to this place. Absent that reckoning, unspoken realities will continue to warp our political calculations, frustrating our best hopes and stunting our potential.



This is the primary argument that I've been making all along.

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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:50 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisladd/2017/03/13/unspeakable-realities-block-universal-health-coverage-in-the-us/#75ba8611186a

Election 2016 has prompted a wave of head-scratching on the left. Counties Trump won by staggering margins will be among the hardest hit by the repeal of the Affordable Care Act. Millions of white voters who supported Donald Trump stand to lose their access to health coverage because of their vote.

Individual profiles of Trump voters feed this baffling narrative. A Washington Post story described the experience of Clyde Graham, a long-unemployed coal worker who depends on the ACA for access to health care. He voted for Trump knowing it might cost him his health insurance out of his hope of capturing the great white unicorn – a new job in the mines. His stance is not unusual.

Why are economically struggling blue collar voters rejecting a party that offers to expand public safety net programs? The reality is that the bulk of needy white voters are not interested in the public safety net. They want to restore their access to an older safety net, one much more generous, dignified, and stable than the public system – the one most well-employed voters still enjoy.

When it seems like people are voting against their interests, I have probably failed to understand their interests. We cannot begin to understand Election 2016 until we acknowledge the power and reach of socialism for white people.

Americans with good jobs live in a socialist welfare state more generous, cushioned and expensive to the public than any in Europe. Like a European system, we pool our resources to share the burden of catastrophic expenses, but unlike European models, our approach doesn’t cover everyone.

Like most of my neighbors I have a good job in the private sector. Ask my neighbors about the cost of the welfare programs they enjoy and you will be greeted by baffled stares. All that we have is “earned” and we perceive no need for government support. Nevertheless, taxpayers fund our retirement saving, health insurance, primary, secondary, and advanced education, daycare, commuter costs, and even our mortgages at a staggering public cost. Socialism for white people is all-enveloping, benevolent, invisible, and insulated by the nasty, deceptive notion that we have earned our benefits by our own hand.

My family’s generous health insurance costs about $20,000 a year, of which we pay only $4,000 in premiums. The rest is subsidized by taxpayers. You read that right. Like virtually everyone else on my block who isn’t old enough for Medicare or employed by the government, my family is covered by private health insurance subsidized by taxpayers at a stupendous public cost. Well over 90% of white households earning over the white median income (about $75,000) carried health insurance even before the Affordable Care Act. White socialism is nice if you can get it.

Companies can deduct the cost of their employees’ health insurance. That results in roughly a $400 billion annual transfer of funds from state and federal treasuries to insurers to provide coverage for the Americans least in need of assistance. This is one of the defining features of white socialism, the most generous benefits go to those who are best suited to provide for themselves. Those benefits are not limited to health care.

When I buy a house for my family, or a vacation home, the interest I pay on the mortgage is deductible up to a million dollars of debt. That costs the treasury $70 billion a year, about what we spend to fund the food stamp program. My private retirement savings are also tax deductible, diverting another $75 billion from government revenues. Other tax preferences carve out special treatment for child care expenses, college savings, commuter costs (your suburban tax credit), local taxes, and other exemptions.

By funding government programs with tax credits rather than spending, we have created an enormous social safety net that grows ever more generous as household incomes rise. It is important to note, though, that you need not be wealthy to participate. All you need to gain access to socialism for white people is a good corporate or government job. That fact helps explain how this welfare system took shape sixty years ago, why it was originally (and still overwhelmingly) white, and why white Rust Belt voters showed far more enthusiasm for Donald Trump than for Bernie Sanders. White voters are not interested in democratic socialism. They want to restore their access to a more generous and dignified program of white socialism.

In the years after World War II, the western democracies that had not already done so adopted universal social safety net programs. These included health care, retirement and other benefits. President Truman introduced his plan for universal health coverage in 1945. It would have worked much like Social Security, imposing a tax to fund a universal insurance pool. His plan went nowhere.

Instead, nine years later Congress laid the foundations of the social welfare system we enjoy today. They rejected Truman’s idea of universal private coverage in favor of a program controlled by employers while publicly funded through tax breaks. This plan gave corporations new leverage in negotiating with unions, handing the companies a publicly-financed benefit they could distribute at their discretion.

No one stated their intention to create a social welfare program for white people, specifically white men, but they didn’t need to. By handing control to employers at a time when virtually every good paying job was reserved for white men the program silently accomplished that goal.

White socialism played a vital political role, as blue collar factory workers and executives all pooled their resources for mutual support and protection, binding them together culturally and politically. Higher income workers certainly benefited more, but almost all the benefits of this system from health care to pensions originally accrued to white families through their male breadwinners. Blue collar or white collar, their fates were largely united by their racial identity and employment status.

Until the decades after the Civil Rights Acts, very few women or minorities gained direct access to this system. Unsurprisingly, this was the era in which white attitudes about the social safety net and the Democratic Party began to pivot. Thanks to this silent racial legacy, socialism for white people retains its disproportionately white character, though that has weakened. Racial boundaries are now less explicit and more permeable, but still today white families are twice as likely as African-Americans to have access to private health insurance. Two thirds of white children are covered by private health insurance, while barely over one third of black children enjoy this benefit.

White socialism has had a stark impact on the rest of the social safety net, creating a two-tiered system. Visit a county hospital to witness an example. American socialism for “everyone else” is marked by crowded conditions, neglected facilities, professionalism compromised by political patronage, and long waits for care. Fall outside the comfortable bubble of white socialism, and one faces a world of frightening indifference.

When Democrats respond to job losses with an offer to expand the public safety net, blue collar voters cringe and rebel. They are not remotely interested in sharing the public social safety net experienced by minority groups and the poorest white families. Meanwhile well-employed and affluent voters, ensconced in their system of white socialism, leverage all the power at their disposal to block any dilution of their expensive public welfare benefits. Something has to break.

We may one day recognize that we are all “in it together” and find ways to build a more stable, sensible welfare system. That will not happen unless we acknowledge the painful and sometimes embarrassing legacy that brought us to this place. Absent that reckoning, unspoken realities will continue to warp our political calculations, frustrating our best hopes and stunting our potential.

It's disingenuous at best to consider tax breaks to be the equivalent of welfare or government subsidization.

I mean, the argument whenever a "flat tax" is brought up is how unfair it is to the poor. I'm going to guess most employed people who "benefit" from the tax breaks would rather have a flat tax where they get no deductions and the taxpayers aren't "subsidizing" them.

I would invite the author to be "subsidized" by me. He can send me 20% of his salary every month and at the end of the year I'll give him 50% of that back in a tax break.

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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:51 am 
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Part of that is on Obama for not selling it correctly. MANY believe that the ACA and Obamacare are 2 different things. They love the ACA but hate Obamacare.

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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:55 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
It's disingenuous at best to consider tax breaks to be the equivalent of welfare or government subsidization.


Yeah, tax breaks don't help poor people.

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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:00 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
It's disingenuous at best to consider tax breaks to be the equivalent of welfare or government subsidization.


Yeah, tax breaks don't help poor people.
So you agree the article is dumb?

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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:00 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
It's disingenuous at best to consider tax breaks to be the equivalent of welfare or government subsidization.


Yeah, tax breaks don't help poor people.


There are probably many case where they do. One example is the rich guy or corporation getting millions in tax breaks to make a car factory where before there was none. Many get fair paying jobs and theoretically everyone wins. Not all of these are perfect and maybe not all of them work out but to simply say in all cases tax breaks don't help the poor is incorrect.

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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:09 am 
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pittmike wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
It's disingenuous at best to consider tax breaks to be the equivalent of welfare or government subsidization.


Yeah, tax breaks don't help poor people.


There are probably many case where they do. One example is the rich guy or corporation getting millions in tax breaks to make a car factory where before there was none. Many get fair paying jobs and theoretically everyone wins. Not all of these are perfect and maybe not all of them work out but to simply say in all cases tax breaks don't help the poor is incorrect.


That's a good theory. There should be some sort of name for economics that directly benefit the rich that might eventually result in benefits for the poor. You know, like the benefits will trickle down to the poor? There's got to be a name for that...

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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:28 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
It's disingenuous at best to consider tax breaks to be the equivalent of welfare or government subsidization.


Yeah, tax breaks don't help poor people.
So you agree the article is dumb?


:lol: No, I agree that you and I are benefitting from stealth welfare.

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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:30 am 
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That depends on what the "correct" tax rate is for you and me.

So if we had a flat tax would we still be getting stealth welfare?

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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:44 am 
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Killer V wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
It's disingenuous at best to consider tax breaks to be the equivalent of welfare or government subsidization.


Yeah, tax breaks don't help poor people.


There are probably many case where they do. One example is the rich guy or corporation getting millions in tax breaks to make a car factory where before there was none. Many get fair paying jobs and theoretically everyone wins. Not all of these are perfect and maybe not all of them work out but to simply say in all cases tax breaks don't help the poor is incorrect.


That's a good theory. There should be some sort of name for economics that directly benefit the rich that might eventually result in benefits for the poor. You know, like the benefits will trickle down to the poor? There's got to be a name for that...


I see what you are doing there. Not all cases work right like stadium deals but not all are bad deals for the poor either.

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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:47 am 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
I just don't view the things binary like you do.


Nice.

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 Post subject: Re: Thieving Bernie
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:56 pm 
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Killer V wrote:
pittmike wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
It's disingenuous at best to consider tax breaks to be the equivalent of welfare or government subsidization.


Yeah, tax breaks don't help poor people.


There are probably many case where they do. One example is the rich guy or corporation getting millions in tax breaks to make a car factory where before there was none. Many get fair paying jobs and theoretically everyone wins. Not all of these are perfect and maybe not all of them work out but to simply say in all cases tax breaks don't help the poor is incorrect.


That's a good theory. There should be some sort of name for economics that directly benefit the rich that might eventually result in benefits for the poor. You know, like the benefits will trickle down to the poor? There's got to be a name for that...


And make sure those lazy workers don't unionize.

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