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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:34 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
I'm sure this insanity won't merely increase the number of 18-year olds from a low-income family without a high school diploma working minimum wage jobs. Not at all. This will surely work as intended.

Also, needing to at least show employment (likely with a private corporation) to get a diploma from a public school certainly smells unconstitutional. I'm not exactly sure how "gainful employment [in a private business]" can be made part of the course work for publicly funded schools.

Either the kids complete the course work and get their diploma, or they do not. If you want to add "post high school planning" as a half-semester requirement like health class is (or was), fine. But necessitating college acceptance or gainful employment as a condition precedent to receiving a diploma is just silly.

You just have to be accepted to college which anyone can do.

Anyone who fails to get a diploma because of this doesn't deserve one. It's basically a 2 sentence essay on 'What do you plan to do after high school?'


So requiring state-issued identification to vote unfairly targets and oppresses minorities, but a school system with a student body nearly 40% black requiring acceptance to college in order to get a high school diploma is, what, empowering?

Ok.

Every CPS student us guaranteed acceptance into college.

In high school I was required to meet with a guidance counselor about my future life plans. This is no different.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:35 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
I'm sure this insanity won't merely increase the number of 18-year olds from a low-income family without a high school diploma working minimum wage jobs. Not at all. This will surely work as intended.

Also, needing to at least show employment (likely with a private corporation) to get a diploma from a public school certainly smells unconstitutional. I'm not exactly sure how "gainful employment [in a private business]" can be made part of the course work for publicly funded schools.

Either the kids complete the course work and get their diploma, or they do not. If you want to add "post high school planning" as a half-semester requirement like health class is (or was), fine. But necessitating college acceptance or gainful employment as a condition precedent to receiving a diploma is just silly.

You just have to be accepted to college which anyone can do.

Anyone who fails to get a diploma because of this doesn't deserve one. It's basically a 2 sentence essay on 'What do you plan to do after high school?'


So requiring state-issued identification to vote unfairly targets and oppresses minorities, but a school system with a student body nearly 40% black requiring acceptance to college in order to get a high school diploma is, what, empowering?

Ok.

Every CPS student us guaranteed acceptance into college.

In high school I was required to meet with a guidance counselor about my future life plans. This is no different.

Of course it's different. I had to meet with a counselor too. Told her I had no idea what I was gonna do. Got my diploma.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:37 pm 
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Minooka Meatball wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
I'm sure this insanity won't merely increase the number of 18-year olds from a low-income family without a high school diploma working minimum wage jobs. Not at all. This will surely work as intended.

Also, needing to at least show employment (likely with a private corporation) to get a diploma from a public school certainly smells unconstitutional. I'm not exactly sure how "gainful employment [in a private business]" can be made part of the course work for publicly funded schools.

Either the kids complete the course work and get their diploma, or they do not. If you want to add "post high school planning" as a half-semester requirement like health class is (or was), fine. But necessitating college acceptance or gainful employment as a condition precedent to receiving a diploma is just silly.

You just have to be accepted to college which anyone can do.

Anyone who fails to get a diploma because of this doesn't deserve one. It's basically a 2 sentence essay on 'What do you plan to do after high school?'


Fine. My two-sentence essay would read: "None of your fucking business. It's my legal right to decide what I want to do when I want to do it, so fuck you".

At my high school they withheld diplomas for library fines and if you misbehaved at graduation. I'm not sure you have a legal right to a diploma at the time of graduation.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:42 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Minooka Meatball wrote:
Trolling posts aside, his proposal would have no legal legs whatsoever.


Kids have to do community service in order to get graduate now. How is that different? These kids would be able to graduate BUT they wouldn't be able to receive a piece of paper without doing something extremely basic.


The community service requirement is baked into the curriculum during the time of school attendance, correct? In the case of withholding the diploma even if the educational requirements to graduate have been fulfilled infringes on the freedom of a legal adult (or, soon-to-be legal adult).

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:43 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
I'm sure this insanity won't merely increase the number of 18-year olds from a low-income family without a high school diploma working minimum wage jobs. Not at all. This will surely work as intended.

Also, needing to at least show employment (likely with a private corporation) to get a diploma from a public school certainly smells unconstitutional. I'm not exactly sure how "gainful employment [in a private business]" can be made part of the course work for publicly funded schools.

Either the kids complete the course work and get their diploma, or they do not. If you want to add "post high school planning" as a half-semester requirement like health class is (or was), fine. But necessitating college acceptance or gainful employment as a condition precedent to receiving a diploma is just silly.

You just have to be accepted to college which anyone can do.

Anyone who fails to get a diploma because of this doesn't deserve one. It's basically a 2 sentence essay on 'What do you plan to do after high school?'


So requiring state-issued identification to vote unfairly targets and oppresses minorities, but a school system with a student body nearly 40% black requiring acceptance to college in order to get a high school diploma is, what, empowering?

Ok.

Every CPS student us guaranteed acceptance into college.

In high school I was required to meet with a guidance counselor about my future life plans. This is no different.

Of course it's different. I had to meet with a counselor too. Told her I had no idea what I was gonna do. Got my diploma.

You still had to meet as a requirement. If you had to have an answer besides 'no idea' I am sure you would have gotten one.

The point is getting a diploma is filled with requirements. This is an incredibly minor one. I'm not going to feel bad for any kid who is too lazy to send in an application to a college.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:44 pm 
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What if you were in a band, and your post-graduation plan was to practice in your garage everyday and try to get famous and make it as a musician? Would writing that as your essay get you your diploma, or is that not good enough for the powers that be who want to decide your future for you?

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:45 pm 
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Minooka Meatball wrote:
Nas wrote:
Minooka Meatball wrote:
Trolling posts aside, his proposal would have no legal legs whatsoever.


Kids have to do community service in order to get graduate now. How is that different? These kids would be able to graduate BUT they wouldn't be able to receive a piece of paper without doing something extremely basic.


The community service requirement is baked into the curriculum during the time of school attendance, correct? In the case of withholding the diploma even if the educational requirements to graduate have been fulfilled infringes on the freedom of a legal adult (or, soon-to-be legal adult).

They can withhold your diploma for actions at graduation.
I don't think the legal rights part holds up.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:46 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The point is [voting] is filled with requirements. [Getting a state-issued ID] is an incredibly minor one. I'm not going to feel bad for any [citizen] who is too lazy to [fulfill the minimal requirements to get a state ID].


FTFY


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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:47 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
I'm sure this insanity won't merely increase the number of 18-year olds from a low-income family without a high school diploma working minimum wage jobs. Not at all. This will surely work as intended.

Also, needing to at least show employment (likely with a private corporation) to get a diploma from a public school certainly smells unconstitutional. I'm not exactly sure how "gainful employment [in a private business]" can be made part of the course work for publicly funded schools.

Either the kids complete the course work and get their diploma, or they do not. If you want to add "post high school planning" as a half-semester requirement like health class is (or was), fine. But necessitating college acceptance or gainful employment as a condition precedent to receiving a diploma is just silly.

You just have to be accepted to college which anyone can do.

Anyone who fails to get a diploma because of this doesn't deserve one. It's basically a 2 sentence essay on 'What do you plan to do after high school?'


So requiring state-issued identification to vote unfairly targets and oppresses minorities, but a school system with a student body nearly 40% black requiring acceptance to college in order to get a high school diploma is, what, empowering?

Ok.

Every CPS student us guaranteed acceptance into college.

In high school I was required to meet with a guidance counselor about my future life plans. This is no different.

Of course it's different. I had to meet with a counselor too. Told her I had no idea what I was gonna do. Got my diploma.


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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:47 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:

The point is getting a diploma is filled with requirements. This is an incredibly minor one. I'm not going to feel bad for any kid who is too lazy to send in an application to a college.

It has nothing to do with being lazy. Maybe the kid doesn't want to get a job, join the military, or go to college. Maybe he wants to do something else. It's not up to the government to force it's citizens to live how the government thinks they should.

I do find it very amusing though that people believe you can legislate decisiveness into 18 year olds. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:48 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The point is [voting] is filled with requirements. [Getting a state-issued ID] is an incredibly minor one. I'm not going to feel bad for any [citizen] who is too lazy to [fulfill the minimal requirements to get a state ID].


FTFY
I have said that before too. Nearly exactly.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:51 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The point is [voting] is filled with requirements. [Getting a state-issued ID] is an incredibly minor one. I'm not going to feel bad for any [citizen] who is too lazy to [fulfill the minimal requirements to get a state ID].


FTFY
I have said that before too. Nearly exactly.


Damn. I had you pegged as being completely opposed to such laws. Fair enough, carry on.


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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:52 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The point is [voting] is filled with requirements. [Getting a state-issued ID] is an incredibly minor one. I'm not going to feel bad for any [citizen] who is too lazy to [fulfill the minimal requirements to get a state ID].


FTFY
I have said that before too. Nearly exactly.


Damn. I had you pegged as being completely opposed to such laws. Fair enough, carry on.

Nas is the one you want to hit with that.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:52 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:

The point is getting a diploma is filled with requirements. This is an incredibly minor one. I'm not going to feel bad for any kid who is too lazy to send in an application to a college.

It has nothing to do with being lazy. Maybe the kid doesn't want to get a job, join the military, or go to college. Maybe he wants to do something else. It's not up to the government to force it's citizens to live how the government thinks they should.

I do find it very amusing though that people believe you can legislate decisiveness into 18 year olds. :lol:

That's a lot of hyperbole. There are hundreds of requirements to receive a high school diploma. This is simply one that makes you spend 5 minutes contemplating your future and maybe fill out a form.

This such a small thing its laughable anyone is worked up on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:55 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:

The point is getting a diploma is filled with requirements. This is an incredibly minor one. I'm not going to feel bad for any kid who is too lazy to send in an application to a college.

It has nothing to do with being lazy. Maybe the kid doesn't want to get a job, join the military, or go to college. Maybe he wants to do something else. It's not up to the government to force it's citizens to live how the government thinks they should.

I do find it very amusing though that people believe you can legislate decisiveness into 18 year olds. :lol:

That's a lot of hyperbole. There are hundreds of requirements to receive a high school diploma. This is simply one that makes you spend 5 minutes contemplating your future and maybe fill out a form.

This such a small thing its laughable anyone is worked up on it.

You're wrong on most of the stuff you posted in this thread. An essay isn't two sentences. An essay takes more than 5 minutes to write. And this requirement doesn't make you "contemplate" your future. It makes you decide on one of three post graduation plans approved by your government.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:57 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Nas is the one you want to hit with that.


Ah, ok.

Nas wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
Nas wrote:
I don't have a problem with this. Why are people upset?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ans ... d31ff94780


You can't force someone to [get a state ID]


He isn't trying to though. He's saying that everyone should have [a state ID] in order to [vote]. What's wrong with that? Why wouldn't you want [everyone] to have a [state ID] even if [voting] isn't for them ?


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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:01 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:

The point is getting a diploma is filled with requirements. This is an incredibly minor one. I'm not going to feel bad for any kid who is too lazy to send in an application to a college.

It has nothing to do with being lazy. Maybe the kid doesn't want to get a job, join the military, or go to college. Maybe he wants to do something else. It's not up to the government to force it's citizens to live how the government thinks they should.

I do find it very amusing though that people believe you can legislate decisiveness into 18 year olds. :lol:

That's a lot of hyperbole. There are hundreds of requirements to receive a high school diploma. This is simply one that makes you spend 5 minutes contemplating your future and maybe fill out a form.

This such a small thing its laughable anyone is worked up on it.

You're wrong on most of the stuff you posted in this thread. An essay isn't two sentences. An essay takes more than 5 minutes to write. And this requirement doesn't make you "contemplate" your future. It makes you decide on one of three post graduation plans approved by your government.

The essay was a hypothetical. This policy as written would take 5 minutes to ponder with a guidance counselor and then filling out a form.

You sound like the guys who wanted to 'STICK IT' to the school one last time by not following a small rule to get your diploma.

Fill out the form and then spend the next year sitting at home.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:05 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
You sound like the guys who wanted to 'STICK IT' to the school one last time by not following a small rule to get your diploma.

No, I don't. This has nothing to do with REBELING AGAINST THE MAN. It's simply about the freedom to not have the government tell you that only three post-graduation plans are acceptable.

You sound like one of those guys who thinks it's ok to tell other people how to live their life if they are doing nothing wrong. Don't worry, you have a lot of company in that regard.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:09 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The essay was a hypothetical. This policy as written would take 5 minutes to ponder with a guidance counselor and then filling out a form.

You sound like the guys who wanted to 'STICK IT' to the school one last time by not following a small rule to get your diploma.

Fill out the form and then spend the next year sitting at home.


Except that's not the policy as detailed in the article:

Quote:
The controversial Chicago mayor has advanced a new proposal requiring all high school seniors who want to get a diploma to show that they have post-graduation plans by providing written proof that they have been accepted — not merely applied to — by a college, a gap-year program or the military. Proof of a job works too.


This is not a "discuss things with your counselor" requirement.


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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:10 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
You sound like the guys who wanted to 'STICK IT' to the school one last time by not following a small rule to get your diploma.

No, I don't. This has nothing to do with REBELING AGAINST THE MAN. It's simply about the freedom to not have the government tell you that only three post-graduation plans are acceptable.

You sound like one of those guys who thinks it's ok to tell other people how to live their life if they are doing nothing wrong. Don't worry, you have a lot of company in that regard.

That's pretty much what high school is for. You have very little freedom.

No need to extend it after that though. It's not a statement about life in general. Making someone in high school apply to a college they are guaranteed acceptance at isn't a sign of government oppression any more than requiring you to learn about the Constitution is.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:11 pm 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The essay was a hypothetical. This policy as written would take 5 minutes to ponder with a guidance counselor and then filling out a form.

You sound like the guys who wanted to 'STICK IT' to the school one last time by not following a small rule to get your diploma.

Fill out the form and then spend the next year sitting at home.


Except that's not the policy as detailed in the article:

Quote:
The controversial Chicago mayor has advanced a new proposal requiring all high school seniors who want to get a diploma to show that they have post-graduation plans by providing written proof that they have been accepted — not merely applied to — by a college, a gap-year program or the military. Proof of a job works too.


This is not a "discuss things with your counselor" requirement.

According to others there are colleges they are guaranteed acceptance to.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:12 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
You sound like the guys who wanted to 'STICK IT' to the school one last time by not following a small rule to get your diploma.

No, I don't. This has nothing to do with REBELING AGAINST THE MAN. It's simply about the freedom to not have the government tell you that only three post-graduation plans are acceptable.

You sound like one of those guys who thinks it's ok to tell other people how to live their life if they are doing nothing wrong. Don't worry, you have a lot of company in that regard.

That's pretty much what high school is for. You have very little freedom.

No need to extend it after that though. It's not a statement about life in general. Making someone in high school apply to a college they are guaranteed acceptance at isn't a sign of government oppression any more than requiring you to learn about the Constitution is.

It's pretty damning that the best argument you can make for this policy is that it's essentially useless. Great!

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:14 pm 
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The argument I'm making is that it is good that it requires all students to ponder and discuss life after high school.

If it is useless that is a problem with the student who chooses to make it useless.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:16 pm 
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Of course kids should have plans after high school, but legislating it like this won't accomplish anything. People will just find ways to work around it, Rahm will say "look, CPS is Doing Something!", and there will continue to be problems with CPS.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:19 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The argument I'm making is that it is good that it requires all students to ponder and discuss life after high school.

The fact that you are insisting on misrepresenting the policy speaks to how stupid it is. Once again, it does not require a student to "ponder and discuss life after high school". It requires a student to submit a written statement saying they agree to go down one of three post-graduation plans approved by their government.

If you want to defend this policy, then defend it. Don't pretend it's something other than what it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:25 pm 
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Can we call this what it is, a pointless requirement proffered by a guy who doesn't understand, nor respect the overwhelming majority of the people he purports to be representing?

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:26 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
The argument I'm making is that it is good that it requires all students to ponder and discuss life after high school.

The fact that you are insisting on misrepresenting the policy speaks to how stupid it is. Once again, it does not require a student to "ponder and discuss life after high school". It requires a student to submit a written statement saying they agree to go down one of three post-graduation plans approved by their government.

If you want to defend this policy, then defend it. Don't pretend it's something other than what it is.
You ate misrepresenting the policy. It requires acceptance in either the military, workforce, or college at the time of graduation. They can literally cancel those plans the minute they get that diploma. They aren't revoking them afterwards if you don't follow through.

A high school kid has to fill out a form and get acceptance which is guaranteed and then make a phone call to say plans changed over the summer.

If you want to meet in the middle on this being meaningless if the student chooses to put in more than the minimum effort we can but the government control angle is bad.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:28 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:

If you want to meet in the middle on this being meaningless if the student chooses to put in more than the minimum effort we can but the government control angle is bad.

It's both meaningless, and a sign of unnecessary government intervention in to the personal lives of it's citizens. Both angles should be criticized.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:31 pm 
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FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:

If you want to meet in the middle on this being meaningless if the student chooses to put in more than the minimum effort we can but the government control angle is bad.

It's both meaningless, and a sign of unnecessary government intervention in to the personal lives of it's citizens. Both angles should be criticized.

That's high school. There would be countless examples of that much worse than this. There are high schools that ban backpacks and don't let you cross the street for lunch.

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 Post subject: Re: Mayor Emanuel
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
FavreFan wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:

If you want to meet in the middle on this being meaningless if the student chooses to put in more than the minimum effort we can but the government control angle is bad.

It's both meaningless, and a sign of unnecessary government intervention in to the personal lives of it's citizens. Both angles should be criticized.

That's high school. There would be countless examples of that much worse than this. There are high schools that ban backpacks and don't let you cross the street for lunch.

That there are already a bunch of unnecessary rules aimed at controlling students behavior is hardly an argument for more.

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