My friend Jerry who I play chess with is Ukrainian and he will flip his lid at being called Russian and start mumbling the word, "hate". When he was 16 years old the Russian army came to his home and dragged him from his bed to make him a soldier while his mother stood there weeping.

But I think the eastern ones might identify as "Russian". Or at least they are very close to being Russian from a cultural standpoint. Whether the West (and the western portion of Ukraine) likes it or not, a whole bunch of people voted for Yanukovych in an election that was as legitimate as many of the ones we have in Chicago.

To me, the problem for the United States is that someone needs to decide if our purpose is righteousness or our own best interests. It's quite disingenuous to go around trumpeting freedom and democracy except when we don't like the results. I have no problem with supporting puppet governments and fomenting or supporting revolution. I just think we should drop the pretense of moral superiority. People may respect morality to a certain degree, but they respect guns and power more.

Obama's philosophy was to shrink the U.S. as a world power. The rise of Putin and his budding new Soviet empire is a result of that. That so-called "re-set" with Moscow was the dumbest idea in the history of modern politics. It immediately told Putin that Obama was weak.

So when Putin big timed Obama in Syria, how exactly did that work out to the President's advantage?

My friend Jerry who I play chess with is Ukrainian and he will flip his lid at being called Russian and start mumbling the word, "hate". When he was 16 years old the Russian army came to his home and dragged him from his bed to make him a soldier while his mother stood there weeping.

But I think the eastern ones might identify as "Russian". Or at least they are very close to being Russian from a cultural standpoint. Whether the West (and the western portion of Ukraine) likes it or not, a whole bunch of people voted for Yanukovych in an election that was as legitimate as many of the ones we have in Chicago.

To me, the problem for the United States is that someone needs to decide if our purpose is righteousness or our own best interests. It's quite disingenuous to go around trumpeting freedom and democracy except when we don't like the results. I have no problem with supporting puppet governments and fomenting or supporting revolution. I just think we should drop the pretense of moral superiority. People may respect morality to a certain degree, but they respect guns and power more.

Obama's philosophy was to shrink the U.S. as a world power. The rise of Putin and his budding new Soviet empire is a result of that. That so-called "re-set" with Moscow was the dumbest idea in the history of modern politics. It immediately told Putin that Obama was weak.

So when Putin big timed Obama in Syria, how exactly did that work out to the President's advantage?

while it's popular on this board to call others out, i'm not doing that here--i'm just making the point that we should stay out. i don't think anybody in this thread has advocated getting involved.

while it's popular on this board to call others out, i'm not doing that here--i'm just making the point that we should stay out. i don't think anybody in this thread has advocated getting involved.

CPguy has in so many words. Most have actually seemed to be of the opinion that we should stay the fuck out. Which gives me hope. Just kinda sad that the conversation is more about Obama and his image than the poor people who are about to be conquered by Putin. And it's not just the board. It's all the news channels too.

while it's popular on this board to call others out, i'm not doing that here--i'm just making the point that we should stay out. i don't think anybody in this thread has advocated getting involved.

wait for it, the game's not over?

Obviously at this stage of the game, it doesn't.
And "good" is too strong a word. Putin will at least let Obama walk away with his/Obama's own sense of dignity and pride intact. So that he/Putin will be able to continue to take advantage of Obama until 2017.

I don't think Putin wants to make the U.S. an open enemy. An open and obvious return to the Cold War benefits Putin not at all.

I think Putin's playing the U.S. and China. Letting both countries think he's working with them against the other guy, even getting China to do his bidding in the UN Security Council.

While goading Obama into these farcical red-line statements that Putin then works with Obama to achieve Putin's ends while letting Obama off the hook for his bogative red-line bluster. It's almost like a script: Putin pushes here; Obama says this; Putin then works with Obama to get what Putin wants while Obama gets to feel like JFK in the Cuban Missile Crisis. Rinse. Repeat

My friend Jerry who I play chess with is Ukrainian and he will flip his lid at being called Russian and start mumbling the word, "hate". When he was 16 years old the Russian army came to his home and dragged him from his bed to make him a soldier while his mother stood there weeping.

But I think the eastern ones might identify as "Russian". Or at least they are very close to being Russian from a cultural standpoint. Whether the West (and the western portion of Ukraine) likes it or not, a whole bunch of people voted for Yanukovych in an election that was as legitimate as many of the ones we have in Chicago.

To me, the problem for the United States is that someone needs to decide if our purpose is righteousness or our own best interests. It's quite disingenuous to go around trumpeting freedom and democracy except when we don't like the results. I have no problem with supporting puppet governments and fomenting or supporting revolution. I just think we should drop the pretense of moral superiority. People may respect morality to a certain degree, but they respect guns and power more.

Obama's philosophy was to shrink the U.S. as a world power. The rise of Putin and his budding new Soviet empire is a result of that. That so-called "re-set" with Moscow was the dumbest idea in the history of modern politics. It immediately told Putin that Obama was weak.

This thread is a great microcosm of how fucked up our nation is at this point. Most of the discussion isn't about Ukraine or Putin or actual foreign policy. It's about "how does this make Obama look".

I'm against sending our troops out yet again. That being said, Putin is dangerous, and I really don't want to have to break out my CCCP jersey for the next Olympics.

it's a bit similar to northern ireland in identity. but seriously...we need to stay the fuck out of that situation. let them sort it out. i'm all for ukraine becoming independent because they have a fucking amazing agricultural system and it'd be nice for them to finally be taken seriously in "risk".