I don't know if that's true. Wouldn't the best comparison be Ralph Nader? I would think for those who recognize his name, they would think of Naders Raiders and the FTC study or his activism first, not helping Bush get the election in 2000.

Do you think Conservatives would agree?

I'm a big dumb shitlib baby

I won't be answering because it's an overly simplistic question.

Obama was able to stabilize the economy and passed a few pieces of legislation, but he also did a lot to continue the status quo, which is very different than what he campaigned on.

You are taking issue with me saying that Obama is an average to above average President. You don't get to play the "overly simplistic question" when it is the actual discussion.

Either tell me why he is not at a minimum an average President or just accept my opinion as a valid one. I'm not going to argue all day with a guy who doesn't even disagree with me. Well, I will if JORR is around.

I'm a big dumb shitlib baby

Sorry Leash. Answer the question. No matter how complex the world or country is these days or the tasks laid in front of any president he can in fact be rated easily. He is either below, at or above average in his performance in general.

Or I guess you can make a list of 5 categories and rate him that way.

No. The world is not as simplistic as you portray it to be. Do you realize how many variables go into such a question? It's a dumb question. Sorry. You have to be more specific when describing a president.

I think you need a lot more hindsight and history to accurately rate a president. Shit, during the Clinton years I may have been willing to make the guy king, but we can now see the havoc his policies wreaked upon the country over the long term.

Then we can also say based on the turnout and %, no Republican nomination winner has had more votes cast against him in party history.

The future holds the possibility to be great or terrible, and since it has not yet occurred it remains simultaneously both.

Are you saying it is impossible to judge a President on overall job performance?

I'm a big dumb shitlib baby

So we've established my opinion is subjective and not factual.

I can judge a President on overall performance and I can make my best guess on the overall performance on one in the future.

And yes, I'll take a President I consider likely to be average to above average when the other two options are Presidents I consider to project to well below average if not a complete disaster.

If you can't project what the person you are voting for would probably do then I don't know how you vote at all.

I'm a big dumb shitlib baby

I guess you could qualify it with "at this time"?

You vote for them for specific reasons, such as "they are ideologically aligned with me" or "I believe they have an ability to work with people and accomplish things." Why must you associate such a broad definition like "above average"? We both know that later, you will use that vague, broad definition to try to catch someone in a "gotcha" moment.

I'm a big dumb shitlib baby

Well, at this time, Obama is a disaster. He presided over the reestablishment of the Soviet Union, Iran bent him over a table and fucked him in the ass, and the gap between the wealthy and the poor has the nation teetering on the brink of revolution. I wouldn't call that "slightly above average", but you have to give it time to play out.

:lol:

The world is gray, Rick.

There are two options. You can agree or disagree with me. It's called a discussion.

I think I need to make a resolution to only argue with people who are actually willing to say that I am wrong on something.

I'm a big dumb shitlib baby

That's why the Democratic Party really doesn't care about you though. If a most of the Bernie supporters aren't even Democrats then they should shut him down. If Bernie wants to take all those people and start his own party then he should.

The crisis consists precisely in the fact that the old is dying and the new cannot be born; in this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms appear.

Well, at this time, Obama is a disaster. He presided over the reestablishment of the Soviet Union, Iran bent him over a table and fucked him in the ass, and the gap between the wealthy and the poor has the nation teetering on the brink of revolution. I wouldn't call that "slightly above average", but you have to give it time to play out.

The world is not binary. I'm not being a dick. I'm just telling you we view things differently. It's fine. We can move on.

The world is not binary. I'm not being a dick. I'm just telling you we view things differently. It's fine. We can move on.

Given that 44% of the American voting population identified as "independent" in the most recent Gallup poll, ignoring independent voters would be a grave error for Democratic Party leadership.

But being right or wrong IS binary.

I'm a big dumb shitlib baby

I'm starting to think that Sanders true end goal is the fracture of the Democratic Party. If you really think about it, his whole campaign has been an attack on the Democratic Party and he seems to be doubling down on those attacks. I'm starting to believe that his "political revolution" is about getting young people to leave the Democratic Party down the line and become Socialists(I know, he was only a Socialist for half his life. He's now a Democratic Socialist).

Quite honestly, he may think the best course of action to get that done is for Donald Trump to be elected President. Hillary is going to be an average to above average President like Obama, and most people are going to go about the next 8 years doing just fine with some highs and some lows, and then we'll remember Bernie like we do Rand Paul and other ideologues that don't really do much besides stir a discussion. However, if Trump gets elected, and he is the disaster he probably would be(until he gets impeached) you might get young people so fired up that they keep up the good fight for the ideas of Bernie past the election. It would be like a more extreme version of the emotional fights against Bush that galvanized a lot of people who suddenly got very silent when Obama basically did the same things in different ways.

So, it's an interesting choice for Bernie. The only way to have a lasting impact is to destroy Hillary Clinton. You can't be the "political revolution" guy and then at the end say "Yeah, the person I used as the example of why we need a political revolution is cool and you should vote for her" and stay relevant.

The crisis consists precisely in the fact that the old is dying and the new cannot be born; in this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms appear.