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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:48 pm 
chaspoppcap wrote:
The bad thing is the one nation that has a decent military in the area will not be asked to help out the Ukrainians. Too much bad blood.
No way in hell should we get involved in anyway beyond what we are now. No need for our military to be involved unless the rest of NATO gets involved. This is one of the situations that NATO was formed for.
Man,You guys where all for the reductions in our military and all that last week now you want us to go into this? Our military is not capable for this. As I said we have at most 10 Divisions worldwide besides the Marines. We have no strength to flex here.This is Egypt part 2. A government gets elected then when shit does not go the way we want we get all righteous and telling them how democracy works. Guys we can't even run our own country.
As others have said,if this goes Putins' way China is going to make not a grab for Tawain but the Spratleys. That is a set up for a true cluster fuck as at least 6 nations have claims to it.
Putin could not have timed this better. Mid Term elections anyone?

This should go into textbooks as the example of how many Americans don't know fuck one other than what some talking head tells them.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:49 pm 
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Nas wrote:
I think when you promise a nation that you will help defend and support them if they give up weapons used to defend themselves then you need to follow through on that promise or you're going to have many more issues in the future.


True Nas,not disputing this but we physically can't.
We do not have the abilities. If things go hot what will we be able to do? To get to Sevastopol we need to transit the straights,we need permission from Turkey to do so.To get anything there we need permission from a bunch of countries that are not real friendly with us,the only one close that is really our friend the Ukrainians would not accept help from.

So tell me Nas what do we do? What do we send? I mean if all it took was a drone strike or two I am confident Obama would have the balls to do it but on this scale. No,the bad thing is that things could start spinning out of control on several fronts. If that happens it can only get worse. NATO must get involved as a coherent block. The bad thing is the only thing the Ukrainians hate more than Russians are the Poles and the Germans

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:51 pm 
chaspoppcap wrote:
Nas wrote:
I think when you promise a nation that you will help defend and support them if they give up weapons used to defend themselves then you need to follow through on that promise or you're going to have many more issues in the future.


True Nas,not disputing this but we physically can't.
We do not have the abilities. If things go hot what will we be able to do? To get to Sevastopol we need to transit the straights,we need permission from Turkey to do so.To get anything there we need permission from a bunch of countries that are not real friendly with us,the only one close that is really our friend the Ukrainians would not accept help from.

So tell me Nas what do we do? What do we send? I mean if all it took was a drone strike or two I am confident Obama would have the balls to do it but on this scale. No,the bad thing is that things could start spinning out of control on several fronts. If that happens it can only get worse. NATO must get involved as a coherent block. The bad thing is the only thing the Ukrainians hate more than Russians are the Poles and the Germans

Why don't you tell us Sec of State ChasDipShit? What do we do? All you want to do is bitch and moan about Dems and Obama and budgets. Tell us what you would do.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:53 pm 
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Then you don't make those types of promises to other nations. Not following through will have far more consequences. No other nation will believe us in the future.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:57 pm 
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Nas wrote:
Then you don't make those types of promises to other nations. Not following through will have far more consequences. No other nation will believe us in the future.


Exactly,Obama should have known that after Syria shit like this would come around. Hell,after the stuff went down with North Korea he should have known.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:02 pm 
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chaspoppcap wrote:
Nas wrote:
Then you don't make those types of promises to other nations. Not following through will have far more consequences. No other nation will believe us in the future.


Exactly,Obama should have known that after Syria shit like this would come around. Hell,after the stuff went down with North Korea he should have known.


This wasn't an Obama promise. This was a United States promise in the 90's. They along with other nations promised to help defend them.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:03 pm 
chaspoppcap wrote:
Nas wrote:
Then you don't make those types of promises to other nations. Not following through will have far more consequences. No other nation will believe us in the future.


Exactly,Obama should have known that after Syria shit like this would come around. Hell,after the stuff went down with North Korea he should have known.

So your recommendation is......


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:07 pm 
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Nas wrote:
chaspoppcap wrote:
Nas wrote:
Then you don't make those types of promises to other nations. Not following through will have far more consequences. No other nation will believe us in the future.


Exactly,Obama should have known that after Syria shit like this would come around. Hell,after the stuff went down with North Korea he should have known.


This wasn't an Obama promise. This was a United States promise in the 90's. They along with other nations promised to help defend them.


True,but wasn't The Pres doing a press conference about this yesterday?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:09 pm 
chaspoppcap wrote:
Nas wrote:
chaspoppcap wrote:
Nas wrote:
Then you don't make those types of promises to other nations. Not following through will have far more consequences. No other nation will believe us in the future.


Exactly,Obama should have known that after Syria shit like this would come around. Hell,after the stuff went down with North Korea he should have known.


This wasn't an Obama promise. This was a United States promise in the 90's. They along with other nations promised to help defend them.


I don't give a crap about treaties from the 90's. Let me bitch about Obama and not talk about any real substance!!!!

FIFY


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:20 pm 
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chaspoppcap wrote:
Nas wrote:
chaspoppcap wrote:
Nas wrote:
Then you don't make those types of promises to other nations. Not following through will have far more consequences. No other nation will believe us in the future.


Exactly,Obama should have known that after Syria shit like this would come around. Hell,after the stuff went down with North Korea he should have known.


This wasn't an Obama promise. This was a United States promise in the 90's. They along with other nations promised to help defend them.


True,but wasn't The Pres doing a press conference about this yesterday?


He was just stating the US position like any other president would have done. The issue is can he deliver if need be.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:35 pm 
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This is one of the reasons why we should stay out of the affairs of other nations. We aren't the police of the world.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:38 pm 
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Nas,he can't. We have not the resources or will to do so.
We ca not operate from sea without being in range from ASM that quite frankly would do a lot of damage,plus we would need permission from the Turks to put units in the Black Sea plus we have treaties with Russia that we would not do that. We would need land bases. The only one that is on our side is Poland and they are virtually land locked. Our ships would have to transit a very narrow and easily blocked route. Plus,If NATO and the Eu got involved all Putin has to do is turn off the NG and Oil.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:44 pm 
Besides being wrong in your "facts" as usual, still seeing a lack of critical thinking about what's actually going on. But please. Continue. I'm rather enjoying watching Nas school you like a 2nd grader.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:29 pm 
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http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/02/don-mess-with-russia-over-ukrai-201422883236707538.html

Don't mess with Russia over Ukraine?
Ukraine's unity is at stake as Russia resists the country's drift towards the West.

Alexander Nekrassov
Alexander Nekrassov is a former Kremlin and government adviser.

Talk about a fluid situation? I am talking about the crisis in Ukraine, obviously, where every day brings news of some dramatic developments. Just a day ago, everyone was wondering where the ousted President Viktor Yanukovych was and now it turns out that he is in Russia, insisting that he remains Ukraine's head of state and is planning to take a stand against the interim regime in Kiev.

So what was the thinking in Moscow behind giving Yanukovych a safe haven? What's going to happen next? These were the questions I asked a friend of mine with good connections in the Kremlin.

"Yanukovych is still technically president of Ukraine," my well informed friend told me. "The people who have ousted him are not really accepted by Moscow as legitimate. So Yanukovych has still everything to play for."

In other words, what my source in Moscow was implying was that Russian President Vladimir Putin has reckoned that there is still enough support for Yanukovych in Ukraine to make him a serious player in the event the country splits into two parts, with the west drifting towards Europe and the south and east remaining in the Russian sphere of influence.

The biggest mistake that so many commentators on all sides make is to say that Ukraine's splitting up into two will have disastrous implication for its neighbours and even regional stability. Well, maybe for the western part of Ukraine that would be the case. It is totally dependent on the industrial base in the east and will have to rely on financial support from the European Union, which, it has to be said, is not at all keen on parting with substantial amounts to help out the new people in charge in Kiev.

Meanwhile the pro-Russian east will actually survive that split, using its close economic and political links with its big neighbour. Not that it would be a great scenario, as everyone accepts at the moment, but if the worst came to the worst, it would not be the end of the world for the mostly Russian-speaking south and east.

The main problem with the new interim regime in Kiev, run by people closely linked to the recently released from prison former prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko - not the most popular figure in the land by all accounts - is that they have been making all the wrong choices. This has been the case ever since they came to power as a result of violent protests which pushed Yanukovych and his government out of power. The new people in Kiev were openly hostile to Russia from the beginning and that was bound to encounter opposition in the south-east of the country. This is exactly what is happening in Crimea and other regions.

The new interim government of national unity which has now emerged in Kiev, headed by Arseniy Yatsenyuk, a close ally of Tymoshenko, does not really come across as a uniting force. Not to mention that it suddenly encountered serious problems with finding the money to keep Ukraine going, as neither the EU or the US are keen on providing financial help at a time when the country's future is in serious doubt.

Some people in Ukraine might be forgiven for thinking that the $15bn loan that had been offered by Russia as a stabilising injection into Ukraine under Yanukovych might not have been such a bad thing after all.

The West at the moment is warning Russia about its possible military involvement in Ukraine to influence the developments there. But would the Kremlin, which sees the overthrow of the regime in Kiev as illegal and supported by the West, be really troubled by these threats?

It cannot afford to have a Western dominated Ukraine, with a possibility of it becoming a member of NATO, not to mention that it would be political suicide for Putin not to be seen in his own country as taking a tough stance against attempts to drag Ukraine away from Russia. And what can the West do anyway, if Moscow offers protection to ethnic Russians living in the south and east in Ukraine?

At the moment the Russian government is telling the world that it is up to the new interim regime in Kiev to sort out the extremist elements in Crimea and other places who are turning against the new authorities. Of course, Western governments see that as an attempt to cover up Moscow's interference in Ukraine's affairs.

The situation in Ukraine remains very dangerous, with a significant possibility of a civil war breaking out and engulfing the whole of the region. It's a good time for all sides to choose their words carefully and tread cautiously. But Western leaders should not kid themselves about Moscow's determination to protect its interests in Ukraine and even to allow a split of the country into two, if the situation gets out of control.

Grave mistake or not, as the US Secretary of State John Kerry has said about a possible Russian military involvement in Ukraine, this is not going to stop Moscow from taking drastic steps if needed. For the stakes are much too high for the Kremlin to just watch idly as its neighbour drifts into the sphere of influence of the West.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:32 pm 
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Nas wrote:
This is one of the reasons why we should stay out of the affairs of other nations. We aren't the police of the world.


america. fuck yeah.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:19 pm 
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Don Tiny wrote:


The biggest mistake that so many commentators on all sides make is to say that Ukraine's splitting up into two will have disastrous implication for its neighbours and even regional stability. Well, maybe for the western part of Ukraine that would be the case. It is totally dependent on the industrial base in the east and will have to rely on financial support from the European Union, which, it has to be said, is not at all keen on parting with substantial amounts to help out the new people in charge in Kiev.

Meanwhile the pro-Russian east will actually survive that split, using its close economic and political links with its big neighbour. Not that it would be a great scenario, as everyone accepts at the moment, but if the worst came to the worst, it would not be the end of the world for the mostly Russian-speaking south and east.

The main problem with the new interim regime in Kiev, run by people closely linked to the recently released from prison former prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko - not the most popular figure in the land by all accounts - is that they have been making all the wrong choices.


Sounds like Putin's holding all the cards: the East has closer ties with Russia, the East has a better economic base and Putin's already started to move his military into those regions (possession's nine-tenths/position of strength/etc).

President Obama earned a reputation as a hell of a poker player during his time in Springfield. We'll see if he can bluff Putin out of Ukraine

Putin has to know that if push came to shove, Obama could wax the floor with the Russian military. Billy Bob and Cletus from the American South and across the USA would line up to volunteer to settle the old score , Russia vs USA, Rocky IV, 1980 Olympics, yadda-yadda, once and for all. We are a very bloodthirsty, warring nation. All an American leader has to do is give us a half-ass reason to kick somebody's ass and we'll do it. Obama needs to start selling his bluff by starting to sell war with Putin to the American people--isn't that what Reagan ultimately did? bluffed the USSR out of existence by appearing to be so ready to scrap that they spent themselves into collapse trying to counter him.

Nas' point about not welching on our commitment to Ukraine to defend in the absence of nuclear weapons is a great starting point. If Dubya could sell us on invading Iraq due to some Saudis supposedly taking out the WTC (Pete Carroll says it didn't happen that way), selling the USA on punching Putin in the mouth should be a no-brainer for the current White House brain-trust.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:26 pm 
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A war with Russia would be anything but conventional. Russia would use nuclear weapons immediately IMO.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:30 pm 
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Nas wrote:
A war with Russia would be anything but conventional. Russia would use nuclear weapons immediately IMO.


They wouldn't dare, too much much to lose, plus there isn't any guarantee that those delivery systems are even functional anymore.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:31 pm 
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yeah. that's just typical fear factor bullshit. i'm team ukraine though.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:33 pm 
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SomeGuy wrote:
Nas wrote:
A war with Russia would be anything but conventional. Russia would use nuclear weapons immediately IMO.


They wouldn't dare, too much much to lose, plus there isn't any guarantee that those delivery systems are even functional anymore.


I believe they would be ready? If not why the hell have we been listening to Russians thump their chest for years?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:37 pm 
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These fucking russians are NOT our friends. That goofy fuck Gorbi is the kind of guy that Putin would have killed while in the GRU or the KGB or whatever the fuck he was in.
Putin wants to embarrass the US. He would LOVE to. The only reason we won that deal was because we had a credit card with a higher limit and no one made a margin call and he knows it.
To Putin's point of view, Obama is viewed as a preening girly man. I am positive he thinks that. And he wants to show it.
I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if he would do something like this with the only intention being defying the US. Force our hand. Call our bluff. Because make no mistake, any US "action" is a bluff. We have no intention, no intention of getting involved.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:38 pm 
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Nas wrote:
A war with Russia would be anything but conventional. Russia would use nuclear weapons immediately IMO.


If their military is in as bad of shape as various sources indicate, yeah, they'd probably have to take out some peripheral military asset with a tactical nuke to demonstrate their willingness to use nukes. Maybe the US airbase in Kyrgyzstan.

Doubt they'd nuke a civil population center immediately, and if they did not a US city.

The hope here, like it was under Reagan, is that things never progress to an actual hot-war. For all the military bluster of Reagan, he probably deployed the US military into war zones less than any President since Herbert Hoover. Freeing some med students in Grenada is about all Reagan ever used the U.S. military for.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:40 pm 
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Nas wrote:
SomeGuy wrote:
Nas wrote:
A war with Russia would be anything but conventional. Russia would use nuclear weapons immediately IMO.


They wouldn't dare, too much much to lose, plus there isn't any guarantee that those delivery systems are even functional anymore.




I believe they would be ready? If not why the hell have we been listening to Russians thump their chest for years?


It only takes one. Yhe Bear a this point is all bluster. If they walk away with Ukraine than that's the twilight for Europe.

Mobilize NATO amd even see of France is in, a US armored divison or two plus some air wings would go a long way in making KGB Putin rethink his strategy. He is feeding purely on weakness.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:44 pm 
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Darkside wrote:
These fucking russians are NOT our friends. That goofy fuck Gorbi is the kind of guy that Putin would have killed while in the GRU or the KGB or whatever the fuck he was in.
Putin wants to embarrass the US. He would LOVE to. The only reason we won that deal was because we had a credit card with a higher limit and no one made a margin call and he knows it.
To Putin's point of view, Obama is viewed as a preening girly man. I am positive he thinks that. And he wants to show it.
I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if he would do something like this with the only intention being defying the US. Force our hand. Call our bluff. Because make no mistake, any US "action" is a bluff. We have no intention, no intention of getting involved.


Agree with this.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:47 pm 
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SomeGuy wrote:
Nas wrote:
A war with Russia would be anything but conventional. Russia would use nuclear weapons immediately IMO.


They wouldn't dare, too much much to lose, plus there isn't any guarantee that those delivery systems are even functional anymore.


Depends if Putin's crazy-crazy or crazy-like-a-fox crazy. Even if he's just playing crazy for the votes and intimidation factor, there's an argument that the world is more comfortable with nuclear fuckery than 30 years ago. We've had 3 Mile Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima and we're still here. I could see Putin lobbing a tactical nuke at a US/NATO military asset and then the world (China and, esp, the likely next target for a Putin nuke EU) jumping in and saying "hold the fuck on, you two, let's talk about this" and getting both sides to the table where, again, Putin's working from a position of strength.

The idea of a nuke early on is to avoid much conventional combat and go right to the UN mandated peace negotiations.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:51 pm 
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Putin demanding and receiving Parlimentary approval to invade is a straight up slap in the face to the US.
A dick slap to the face.
Obama should have just stayed the fuck out of this. Russia and China want this confrontation. We cannot win it.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:52 pm 
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NearWessSideHussra wrote:
Nas wrote:
A war with Russia would be anything but conventional. Russia would use nuclear weapons immediately IMO.


If their military is in as bad of shape as various sources indicate, yeah, they'd probably have to take out some peripheral military asset with a tactical nuke to demonstrate their willingness to use nukes. Maybe the US airbase in Kyrgyzstan.

Doubt they'd nuke a civil population center immediately, and if they did not a US city.

The hope here, like it was under Reagan, is that things never progress to an actual hot-war. For all the military bluster of Reagan, he probably deployed the US military into war zones less than any President since Herbert Hoover. Freeing some med students in Grenada is about all Reagan ever used the U.S. military for.


Really are you freaking serious?
Marines in Lebanon,Dropping bombs on Libya and the Line of Death.
The Russian Navy has been getting in better shape,they might even be able to put one or two boomers out. If all of a sudden they sortie subs then get worried.
It would be easy to get Americans riled up but not to the point of putting soldiers there. No direct Us Strike,maybe a NATO base but not a 100% US one. Once again,fuck Europe. Why do we have to bail them out every 20-30 years? Hell give the Germans some cash and tanks and tell the Poles to get out of the way. Even more funny about a year ago we pulled out all of our heavy units from Germany,then about 3 months ago the tanks went back. We might not have a huge standing force there right now but we still have I think one or maybe two POMCUS. I will look it up. Right now all we could deploy to Ukraine is 82nd Airborne part of the Rangers. Then in about 1-2 weeks 101st Airmobile. Then maybe 1 or 2 Striker BCT. no way they would be able to operate with out support. As I said we have no place to saftly stage our guys out of. No place to sortie those A-10s that the airforce wants to get rid of.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:54 pm 
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chaspoppcap wrote:
NearWessSideHussra wrote:
For all the military bluster of Reagan, he probably deployed the US military into war zones less than any President since Herbert Hoover. Freeing some med students in Grenada is about all Reagan ever used the U.S. military for.


Really are you freaking serious?
Marines in Lebanon,Dropping bombs on Libya and the Line of Death. .



Marines with unloaded weapons, iirc.

All of which adds up to far fewer troops and bombs in combat zones than Bush I, Clinton, Dubya or Obama.


Last edited by NearWessSideHussra on Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:55 pm 
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W_Z wrote:
yeah. that's just typical fear factor bullshit. i'm team ukraine though.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:56 pm 
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Talk about timing one of the magazines I subscribe to ran a story this issue on the militarys of Eastern Europe. Few issues back the Russian and the reorganization they underwent.

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