Well a 1000 sq foot apartment typically has a heater with two to three 20 amp elements so running 40 to 60 amps vs 10 or so from a compressor and condenser fan motor is pretty clear. If you have a straight heat pump in this climate you need aux heat. Modern heat pumps can maintain a 70 degree delta but if it gets below 0 you need aux heat and it will get below zero.

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even that all aside... why do they claim heat pumps are more efficient than electric heat? its not possible, thinking back to my electrical theory schooling. the only thing i can think of is electric heat is normally not circulated, so you get cold areas with baseboards, which people offset by running them more than you would with a forced air system that heatpumps normally come with. and if thats all that's the problem, if you ran your ceiling fans with baseboards, that still has to be more efficient than a compressor running... unless i guess if you consider the heat loss from the compressor is circulated into the house.

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A heat pump is efficient because it absorbs and circulates heat rather than generate it. They don’t work in cold climates because there isn’t enough heat to absorb.

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“How do you get to be president and you’re stupid?” Donald J Trump - 4/10/25
When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus. - Turkish Proverb

Electric heat is near 100% efficient in that all power in is converted to heat except for a tiny percentage that radiates as visible light. That's why it is called efficient. Is it an efficient way of heating a home? Absolutely not. A system that converts 70% of potential energy into usable heat but uses 25% of the original energy is more efficient a heater than something that converts 99% of the energy used into usable heat but uses 4 times the input energy.

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I'm in AZ Darko! I appreciate you and Ike very much!!

The system is from 2008, so roughly 12 or 13 years old. I installed the Nest earlier this year before the scorching Arizona summer. The A/C has worked great since then. I haven't had to turn the system on at all the past month or so because we were in that goldilocks zone. This morning dipped into the 40s and I finally had enough....but I wasn't getting warmer. I'm pretty good with searching Google and Reddit (maybe I should have posted here ) but finally gave up searching and called Bruce's. My dumbass had the white wire in in the W socket when it should have been in the OB socket.

After the job was completed, he offered to do a routine check up. Pressures were normal. Then, as we entered the house again, he asked if I noticed the hot and cold spots around the house. I acknowledged that the front of the house was cooler and know that my inspection report from a couple years back noted that there could be more insulation. I told him it's not a big deal as the family room and the master bedroom are cooled and heated just fine. That's when he said let me get back in the attic and check for leaks "just in case."

He came back down and gave me the run around.

I had the same company (different guy) out around the same time I installed the Nest earlier in the year. I remember him telling me a coil was leaking in the unit outside. He said it was no big deal and I watched him administer a bunch of freon (not the r22 stuff, the 410 shit). The guy said it's an old unit, either add the freon or buy a new system if you're staying in the house for a long time (which I'm not).

If you're not staying, and there's a legit leak, add the refer and if you're feeling saucy a leak sealant. Don't replace shit. If it cooled ok in the summer and you live in AZ I'm not really thinking the leak is replacement level.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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When I say I'm not staying, I mean I can't see myself living here for more than another few years. I feel like riding it out. If it breaks, I'll get a new system. I have a feeling it's just not that big of a deal, especially because it cooled really well over this past summer (April through October). And the heat was almost too powerful last winter.

Is there more concern with a leak in the unit outside or a leak with the heat pump in the attic? I guess I'm going back to your evaporator vs condenser question because I'm too stupid to know the difference.

Still dont get it. Its a closed loop system. The only input of both systems is electricity. One is 99% efficient. The other has moving parts compressing gas, of which is reclaimed all in itself so its not gaining anything. Even if you reclaimed the heat loss from the moving parts, you might get close to electric heat, but youre still losing energy in motion of the parts.

Unless you think of it like a window fan on a hot day. The amount of heat that would bring in would far outweigh the heat an electric heater would generate with the same input. Seems crazy that you can absorb that much heat from 'cold' air, but maybe thats whats what makes it actually more efficient. And also explains that its actually not a closed loop system in that sense, because youre drawing in heat from outside. I guess i get it now.

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the world will always the world. your entire existence is defined by your response.

I told the dude this and he immediately was like

Couple years... Wait until it loses enough pressure to cause problems. Then throw leak sealant in it and charge it up. Then move within a year.

Dont worry about the 410a leaking into your house. Its not toxic unless of course it all dumped at once and replaced most of the oxygen suddenly

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the world will always the world. your entire existence is defined by your response.

Then he's full of crap. if it cools efficiently it will heat efficiently. I really wish I could stop by damnit.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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Here are some pictures sent along with the invoice. He showed me the very first picture when referencing the leaking coil.

I had a bozo here in NC tell me something similar about my AC during a check-up, that I should just pay $6k and replace the whole system. Told him to go fuck off. It turned out it was a slow leak as well as a wonky capacitor which finally went a few months later. Brought out a more reputable firm, got a good old boy who replaced the capacitor and loaded in coolant. Coolant had been low bit nobody knew for how long as the home inspection when I bought the place didn't check it. This guy showed me the math and said that as long as the leak was slow enough to take at least a year to blow through the coolant then I'd be better off not replacing anything until something else failed. He also installed a Nest for me which I had purchased from my electric provider but hadn't installed yet.

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Jeezus clean your fuckin coils. Theyre dirty and costing you money

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the world will always the world. your entire existence is defined by your response.

you talking specifically about that last photo? That's all the monsoons. We were hit pretty hard this year.

Ya know, if that was running in cooling mode, your system is fucked up. Your liquid line pressure is obscenely high and subcooling is ridiculously high. Your low side is also high but running at a superheat like that makes me wonder if there's a bad txv or piston and someone overcharged the shit out of that thing. Something really bizarre about those numbers. What was the temperatures that day? It looks so weird it's almost fake to me.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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This man fucks

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the world will always the world. your entire existence is defined by your response.

Those numbers were recorded when the heat was running at 86 while it was 80 outside.

DS and Ike,

My Mother-in-Law is up in New Berlin, WI, in a condo. The residents have been told they need to replace their water heaters, and she was quoted $2400, $500 for the drip pan alone.

Several are looking to have Home Depot do the work using Rheem units, for much less.

Any directions here would help. I am able to do the work, but not available to do so soon. Probably better for her to have it done, but that sounds like robbery. Pretty sure it is electric, and in a closet in the kitchen, first floor, and I'd guess its 40 gallon. I think the laundry pair is in the closet next to the water heater.

Sorry, not positive on some of the details. And, yes, I love my MIL, she's great.

That price is insane.
Why would everyone have to replace their water heaters? Is that required every so many years or something?
If all it is is an electric unit you're talking about sweating in two lines and Nutting in two wires. NBD. Probably an hours work. A 40g water heater is probably $700 bucks.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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Yeah, I'm confused over the $2,400 quote. Get yourself to Home Depot or Lowe's. I believe a metal drip pan is best (as opposed to plastic).

You think everything is cool? There's nothing dangerous about a leaking coil? It's just something to monitor and hope it lasts another year or two?

Nothing dangerous about it at all. Just might have to add some refer every so often. How much refrigerant did he add?

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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He didn't add any refrigerant. He never presented that as an option -- very first thing he mentioned when he came down from the attic was that I had to replace the coil.

It's frustrating because the same company who came out before the summer -- different guy, a young kid, was really cool about everything. He explained to me that my unit was old but still running fairly well, told me the original installers were idiots who should have installed the unit 6-12 inches further from the house, and offered to add freon/refrigerant to the outside condenser coil. Super chill. This dude the other week was much more of a salesman.

Generally, a service tech is largely expected to be a salesman first and maybe a repairman if convenient second. We are expected to sell something at every call. It's a tenet i could never understand or agree with. I'm there to fix problems not sell you snake oil filters and purification systems that operate much like the dollar does, on faith along with no real backing. The younger technician probably still an ideology that hasn't been corrupted by biweekly sales meeting disguised as tool box talks and has the customers best interests in mind rather than reverse nursing the company teet.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
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Yes, many questions that are unanswered.

I understand some guy in the third floor had his water heater rupture and flood several units causing big damage. I asked if the condo association can force a resident who owns their unit to do anything. Several people went together to get a package deal, and this was the quote she got from them. $2300 total, includes $250 to remove and reinstall the washer and dryer combo unit that sits next to the water heater in the same closet. Also, $500 for installation of a drip pan and plumbing up to 20 feet to a floor drain. Recent picture shows a drip pan under the existing heater, not sure of it is plumbed to a drain or not. She has no floor drains in the unit, she's on the first floor with parking garage below, so I think the floor is poured concrete underneath. Not sure if I could connect a pan drain to the laundry drain without the washer flooding the pan every load and no room for a trap.

This condo is about 20 years old, I'd think the pan would have been plumbed to drain initially, not sure why they need to replace it. She asked, and was told it was because otherwise they would have to lift the heater out of the old pan and the new one into the old pan, so $500 for their convenience.

The supply and outlet lines are even connected to the tank with shark bite-type connections, no cutting needed! Electric Bradford White Professional, looks like a 40 gallon.

She has contacted Home Depot unfortunately, and they are less than half price. I'm three hours away, but could easily pull this job off, especially if the existing pan is plumbed to a drain already. It may be worth my time in In-Law points earned.

Appreciate you sir!

Darko- I understand the difference in gas valves you referenced on Rheem heaters, do you know of any on electric units? I am seriously planning a trip up there to replace her heater. I can probably buy retail there and save the cost of gas money to drive my truck all the way. My cousin no longer has his wholesale account here, as he is retired, so not sure I can secure a better price here and haul it there. Highlander gets 26mpg, truck 11, would cost me about $60 to drive the truck.

Pretty much wver6 electric unit is nearly exactly the same. I'd just pick one up locally. Just make sure you don't need a permit to install. That might just be a illinois thing so I don't know if that's necessary where you're heading but either a condo board clearly stealing kickbacks from whomever quoted 2400 to install and haul who knows what to expect.

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"Play until it hurts, then play until it hurts to not play."
http://soundcloud.com/darkside124 HOF 2013, MM Champion 2014

Yeah, I Googled plumbing supply houses up there, and came across a plumbing business a block from their condos with a five star rating. Website looked great, good reviews, so I suggested using them for a competitive bid as well. Turns out, that's who quoted $2400. Oops.

She thinks it's a 50 gallon, I would rather measure that one so I don't have to completely replumb the feed line, as it ties to the master shutoff for her unit in the same closet. a little rerouting is no problem, I just don't want to have to shut the whole condo down. I figure a homeowner can do whatever replacement is needed without a permit, i'm just acting in her stead as a relative. Call it a Christmas gift.