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Death of the American Dream
https://mail.chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=100131		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  WaitingforRuffcorn [ Tue May 03, 2016 10:43 am ]
Post subject:  Death of the American Dream
Some pretty scaring economic figures in this article. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... me/476415/

Seeing how this election is going it certainly feels like the nation is tearing itself apart.
Author:  denisdman [ Tue May 03, 2016 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Some pretty scaring economic figures in this article. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... me/476415/

Seeing how this election is going it certainly feels like the nation is tearing itself apart.



Among many things our schools do poorly, financial education is tops on my list. At Conant, I know we had a one semester course on consumer education, basically how to balance a check book. Our society values showy consumption, namely the appearance of wealth. That means large house, two cars, big screen tvs, cell phones, nice clothes and eating out. No where is the average person taught true basic finance like managing investments, the cost of credit, saving for a rainy day. The basics are quite simple.

Rich, poor, and everyone in between run into financial problems. It all boils down to the same basic problem- living beyond one's means. I have seen both ends of the spectrum- people who save too much and those who save nothing at all. Everywhere in society there are institutions pushing you to spend on things you really can't afford:

-Buy a car with a 84 month loan with zero down. Better yet, lease the car and get more for your money. Meaning more for your monthly payment.
-Loan officers who put people in houses well beyond their income level.
-Credit card companies that flip you offers. If you're buying things on credit cards without paying off the balance each month, you almost certainly are living beyond your means.
-Not saving for college or retirement. A little put away each month adds up to a lot over 10, 20, 30 year periods.
Author:  Curious Hair [ Tue May 03, 2016 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
denisdman wrote:
Among many things are schools do poorly
Author:  JORR [ Tue May 03, 2016 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
denisdman wrote:
No where is the average person taught true basic finance like managing investments, the cost of credit, saving for a rainy day.


True, and those fractional percentage points or financing an extra 19 bucks a month doesn't seem like much. Most people just say, "I can afford that." But that shit adds up.

It's not much different than betting on horses. Not many of the guys I have ever hung out with at racetracks and OTBs over the years have any clue as to the takeout on the races they're betting. I'd bet a lot Terry Boers never thought twice about it. That's the price, man! It's tough to bet into a 22% takeout
Author:  Brick [ Tue May 03, 2016 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Some pretty scaring economic figures in this article. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... me/476415/

Seeing how this election is going it certainly feels like the nation is tearing itself apart.
It isn't really that scary. Lots of people choose to have credit card debt so they have to answer the question that way.

This guy, by his own admission, makes a pretty good salary. Not having $1,000 in the bank is his fault.

Oh, and by the way, this writer lives in the Hamptons and had a place in Manhattan. :lol: Let's cry a river for a guy that literally moved to one of the most expensive areas in the whole world while keeping a residence in the most expensive area in the world!
Author:  bigfan [ Tue May 03, 2016 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
Curious Hair wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Among many things are schools do poorly


Good that you understood the point.
Author:  Curious Hair [ Tue May 03, 2016 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
I don't know how it was at high schools that didn't have to put buckets in the hallways to collect rainwater seeping through the holes in the roof, but at the Badger Country Club, the life-skills course for seniors that would have covered all this stuff was only meant for kids who not only weren't in APs but weren't in honors or even regular senior BritLit. The idea was that if you were smart enough to read Paradise Lost instead of learning how to balance a checkbook and plan a household budget, you were raised well enough for your parents to teach you that shit themselves. I should think a semester course on Knowing How Money Works would have been a better prereq for graduation than the typing class we all had to take (which I skirted by doing a semester of independent-study desktop publishing and saying I typed). Maybe they've updated the curriculum since, but I tend to doubt it.
Author:  Brick [ Tue May 03, 2016 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
The more I think about it the more laughable this article is. This is the kind of guy that should fail in our system. He has the world at his fingertips and was setup for huge success. All of his financial issues were self inflicted. He didn't get screwed by the system. He screwed himself.

To then compare his plight to the Americans that actually do have an uphill climb to financial security is pretty funny. Ignorance also isn't an excuse. Plenty of financial advisers would have been around to help him out.
Author:  Curious Hair [ Tue May 03, 2016 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
I agree that this very long article is just the story of a successful upper-class guy fucking up and it's not really germane to most Americans' struggles.
Author:  Brick [ Tue May 03, 2016 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
I don't think schools can really teach smart financial decision making. It's pretty easy to figure out if you are actually motivated to do so.

The hard part is actually wanting to do it for some, and having the ability to actually do it for others.
Author:  Regular Reader [ Tue May 03, 2016 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
I cannot agree more with the last two posters.
Author:  Curious Hair [ Tue May 03, 2016 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
Regular Reader wrote:
I cannot agree more with the last two posters.

Maybe it's just a "common sense is not so common" thing, but I'm not sure handling money is easy enough for most people, hence the problem. I mean, I agree that America has a serious problem with conspicuous consumption, but to place all the blame on the consumers isn't entirely fair. It's like saying that capitalism isn't failing us, it's just that people are dumb to buy stuff.
Author:  Regular Reader [ Tue May 03, 2016 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
Curious Hair wrote:
Maybe it's just a "common sense is not so common" thing, but I'm not sure handling money is easy enough for most people, hence the problem. I mean, I agree that America has a serious problem with conspicuous consumption, but to place all the blame on the consumers isn't entirely fair. It's like saying that capitalism isn't failing us, it's just that people are dumb to buy stuff.


In the JDC thread there is a post discussing the actual cost of a IPhone6+ that half of teenagers walk around with. I seriously don't thing I've ever had a conversation with anyone about the actual cost of the phone. For most it's seemingly: "just take the plan & it's easy".

Convincing the masses here that the lotto mentality is intertwined with the American Dream (& that it's just fine) was a miracle of naked greed & modern marketing.
Author:  Curious Hair [ Tue May 03, 2016 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
Yeah, I have like a $70 slide phone. It does what I need it to do: calls, texts, dick pictures, you know. I'm not sure there's a bigger money sink in modern life than a smartphone.
Author:  pittmike [ Tue May 03, 2016 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
denisdman wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Some pretty scaring economic figures in this article. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... me/476415/

Seeing how this election is going it certainly feels like the nation is tearing itself apart.



Among many things are schools do poorly, financial education is tops on my list. At Conant, I know we had a one semester course on consumer education, basically how to balance a check book. Our society values showy consumption, namely the appearance of wealth. That means large house, two cars, big screen tvs, cell phones, nice clothes and eating out. No where is the average person taught true basic finance like managing investments, the cost of credit, saving for a rainy day. The basics are quite simple.

Rich, poor, and everyone in between run into financial problems. It all boils down to the same basic problem- living beyond one's means. I have seen both ends of the spectrum- people who save too much and those who save nothing at all. Everywhere in society there are institutions pushing you to spend on things you really can't afford:

-Buy a car with a 84 month loan with zero down. Better yet, lease the car and get more for your money. Meaning more for your monthly payment.
-Loan officers who put people in houses well beyond their income level.
-Credit card companies that flip you offers. If you're buying things on credit cards without paying off the balance each month, you almost certainly are living beyond your means.
-Not saving for college or retirement. A little put away each month adds up to a lot over 10, 20, 30 year periods.



Some on this board have said these are rights people should have to make their life livable.
Author:  Darkside [ Tue May 03, 2016 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
This guy sounds like a total asshole.
Author:  denisdman [ Tue May 03, 2016 12:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
Curious Hair wrote:
denisdman wrote:
Among many things are schools do poorly


Nice...I usually catch that stuff when I proof my posts.
Author:  WaitingforRuffcorn [ Tue May 03, 2016 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
I think that the writer's personal story is taking away from the statistics. About half of the country has zero savings. Seems pretty frightening.
Author:  denisdman [ Tue May 03, 2016 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
I think that the writer's personal story is taking away from the statistics. About half of the country has zero savings. Seems pretty frightening.


I am saying it across income groups. It is one thing for an unemployed person or a minimum wage worker to not have $400 for an emergency or to be able to pay the gas bill. But it is quite another for rich people to file bankruptcy and folks living in a $350,000 house with a six figure income to be cash poor.

It is truly the way our society functions- a lack of financial education (grammar education in my case) and consumption gone awry.
Author:  Brick [ Tue May 03, 2016 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
I think that the writer's personal story is taking away from the statistics. About half of the country has zero savings. Seems pretty frightening.
It could be for any number of reasons though.
Author:  IkeSouth [ Tue May 03, 2016 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
Half the population cant pay for a small emergency when .0000000089% hold the same wealth as that half. Gee i wonder what the problem is
Author:  WaitingforRuffcorn [ Tue May 03, 2016 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
It could be for any number of reasons though.


Once you have hit half the country it seems like there is something systemically wrong.
Author:  rogers park bryan [ Tue May 03, 2016 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
pittmike wrote:
denisdman wrote:
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Some pretty scaring economic figures in this article. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... me/476415/

Seeing how this election is going it certainly feels like the nation is tearing itself apart.



Among many things are schools do poorly, financial education is tops on my list. At Conant, I know we had a one semester course on consumer education, basically how to balance a check book. Our society values showy consumption, namely the appearance of wealth. That means large house, two cars, big screen tvs, cell phones, nice clothes and eating out. No where is the average person taught true basic finance like managing investments, the cost of credit, saving for a rainy day. The basics are quite simple.

Rich, poor, and everyone in between run into financial problems. It all boils down to the same basic problem- living beyond one's means. I have seen both ends of the spectrum- people who save too much and those who save nothing at all. Everywhere in society there are institutions pushing you to spend on things you really can't afford:

-Buy a car with a 84 month loan with zero down. Better yet, lease the car and get more for your money. Meaning more for your monthly payment.
-Loan officers who put people in houses well beyond their income level.
-Credit card companies that flip you offers. If you're buying things on credit cards without paying off the balance each month, you almost certainly are living beyond your means.
-Not saving for college or retirement. A little put away each month adds up to a lot over 10, 20, 30 year periods.



Some on this board have said these are rights people should have to make their life livable.

Link?
Author:  rogers park bryan [ Tue May 03, 2016 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
A class on financial management, paying taxes, and mortgages would probably be ok.
Author:  Seacrest [ Tue May 03, 2016 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
rogers park bryan wrote:
A class on financial management, paying taxes, and mortgages would probably be ok.


Without classes on virtue, character and what's really important, those classes won't be of much help.
Author:  rogers park bryan [ Tue May 03, 2016 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
Seacrest wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
A class on financial management, paying taxes, and mortgages would probably be ok.


Without classes on virtue, character and what's really important, those classes won't be of much help.

Religious education? History?
Author:  Brick [ Tue May 03, 2016 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
WaitingforRuffcorn wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
It could be for any number of reasons though.


Once you have hit half the country it seems like there is something systemically wrong.
This article paints a picture that it is mostly about choices rather than some sort of systematic reason. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/04/why-dont-americans-save-money/478929/

Unless we are saying that we need to take peoples money to protect them from themselves.
Author:  rogers park bryan [ Tue May 03, 2016 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Unless we are saying that we need to take peoples money to protect them from themselves.

Image
Author:  Regular Reader [ Tue May 03, 2016 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
rogers park bryan wrote:
A class on financial management, paying taxes, and mortgages would probably be ok.


But who would teach the class? Most/many teachers are too clueless to figure out plans to get them through the summers, unless they teach summer school. Hell when I ran a local school council, I learned that the grandfathered in financial manager was in the process of losing her home in a shitty, yet originally "upscale" newer subdivision in Matteson?!? :shock: :|

No one at the school knew, I just happened to have parts of her foreclosure case come into my office and I felt an obligation to have the principal (& myself) start to insure extra scrutiny of her work.
Author:  FavreFan [ Tue May 03, 2016 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Death of the American Dream
I tend to side with Rick on this. It probably would help a small percentage of people if high schools taught more of these skills, but there's a large number of people that are always going to be dumb and selfish, not an ideal combination for good financial planning.
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