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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:51 am 
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http://reason.com/blog/2017/03/14/femal ... es-sex-wit

More Third Wave Feminism at work

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:52 am 
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Nevertheless, she persisted.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:56 am 
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"something-something...it's an administrative decision, not a legal one...due process doesn't mean...".

If it is indeed true that Title IX explicitly forbids counter claims because of "retaliation", then the whole damned thing has got to be repealed, not just the Dear Colleague letter.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:58 am 
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Say what you will about Betsy DeVos, but she may dismantle Title IX and that's a good thing as Title IX is what universities are using in these cases.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:10 am 
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The Title IX investigation included all the familiar, horrifyingly unfair elements typical of these cases. Two officials, Mary Howell Sirna and Tricia McKinney, were tasked with handling the investigation. They decided which witnesses to interview, and—according to John—failed to interview people whose testimony would have helped John.

At the actual hearing, an administrator "did not allow testimony from anyone who was with Jane Doe after she left John Doe's room on the night of the alleged incident," even though these individuals could have testified to Jane's lack of alcohol-induced incapacity.

The evidence presented by the investigators to the hearing panel consisted solely of investigators' recollections of their conversations with witnesses—no transcripts, audio, or video tapes. This proved to be a problem. John, for instance, claims he told the investigator that he woke up in the morning fully clothed and with his shoes on (casting doubt on Jane's assertions about having sex in the bean bag chair). But this detail did not appear in the report that was presented to the hearing panel. Investigator Sirna reportedly said she couldn't recall John making such a claim during their interview. Because the interview was not recorded or transcribed, there was no way to tell who was right.

Incredibly, John's state of incapacitation was held against him. "Given that… respondent claims not to recall the event, we then must turn to the evidence provided by the Complainant," wrote the investigators.

The university also took Jane's side in other ways. When officials learned that John was bringing a lawyer to the hearing, they strongly advised Jane to do so as well. Acting Dean of Students Jerry Parker personally arranged for Jane to have a lawyer, forwarded all relevant legal documents to this lawyer, and even offered to talk to the lawyer on background about Jane's case. He did all of this, despite maintaining that the university was a neutral arbiter in the matter of Jane vs. John.


:shock: That's infuriating to even read.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:13 am 
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Poor men. We're always the victim.

I love how the immediate reaction is to get rid of something when something happens to a man.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:14 am 
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Nas wrote:
Poor men. We're always the victim.

I love how the immediate reaction is to get rid of something when something happens to a man.


Strawman of the Century Award for this post.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:15 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Quote:
The Title IX investigation included all the familiar, horrifyingly unfair elements typical of these cases. Two officials, Mary Howell Sirna and Tricia McKinney, were tasked with handling the investigation. They decided which witnesses to interview, and—according to John—failed to interview people whose testimony would have helped John.

At the actual hearing, an administrator "did not allow testimony from anyone who was with Jane Doe after she left John Doe's room on the night of the alleged incident," even though these individuals could have testified to Jane's lack of alcohol-induced incapacity.

The evidence presented by the investigators to the hearing panel consisted solely of investigators' recollections of their conversations with witnesses—no transcripts, audio, or video tapes. This proved to be a problem. John, for instance, claims he told the investigator that he woke up in the morning fully clothed and with his shoes on (casting doubt on Jane's assertions about having sex in the bean bag chair). But this detail did not appear in the report that was presented to the hearing panel. Investigator Sirna reportedly said she couldn't recall John making such a claim during their interview. Because the interview was not recorded or transcribed, there was no way to tell who was right.

Incredibly, John's state of incapacitation was held against him. "Given that… respondent claims not to recall the event, we then must turn to the evidence provided by the Complainant," wrote the investigators.

The university also took Jane's side in other ways. When officials learned that John was bringing a lawyer to the hearing, they strongly advised Jane to do so as well. Acting Dean of Students Jerry Parker personally arranged for Jane to have a lawyer, forwarded all relevant legal documents to this lawyer, and even offered to talk to the lawyer on background about Jane's case. He did all of this, despite maintaining that the university was a neutral arbiter in the matter of Jane vs. John.


:shock: That's infuriating to even read.


I assume this guy is going to sue the fuck out of the school, and win?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:17 am 
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Tad Queasy wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Quote:
The Title IX investigation included all the familiar, horrifyingly unfair elements typical of these cases. Two officials, Mary Howell Sirna and Tricia McKinney, were tasked with handling the investigation. They decided which witnesses to interview, and—according to John—failed to interview people whose testimony would have helped John.

At the actual hearing, an administrator "did not allow testimony from anyone who was with Jane Doe after she left John Doe's room on the night of the alleged incident," even though these individuals could have testified to Jane's lack of alcohol-induced incapacity.

The evidence presented by the investigators to the hearing panel consisted solely of investigators' recollections of their conversations with witnesses—no transcripts, audio, or video tapes. This proved to be a problem. John, for instance, claims he told the investigator that he woke up in the morning fully clothed and with his shoes on (casting doubt on Jane's assertions about having sex in the bean bag chair). But this detail did not appear in the report that was presented to the hearing panel. Investigator Sirna reportedly said she couldn't recall John making such a claim during their interview. Because the interview was not recorded or transcribed, there was no way to tell who was right.

Incredibly, John's state of incapacitation was held against him. "Given that… respondent claims not to recall the event, we then must turn to the evidence provided by the Complainant," wrote the investigators.

The university also took Jane's side in other ways. When officials learned that John was bringing a lawyer to the hearing, they strongly advised Jane to do so as well. Acting Dean of Students Jerry Parker personally arranged for Jane to have a lawyer, forwarded all relevant legal documents to this lawyer, and even offered to talk to the lawyer on background about Jane's case. He did all of this, despite maintaining that the university was a neutral arbiter in the matter of Jane vs. John.


:shock: That's infuriating to even read.


I assume this guy is going to sue the fuck out of the school, and win?


Guys have been winning on due process claims against schools after these kinds of kangaroo court proceedings--or at least, the judge denies the plethora of dismissal motions, and the universities quickly settle--so probably.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:19 am 
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Nas wrote:
Poor men. We're always the victim.



Who said that? Should we not care when men are victimized by arbitrary and capricious processes?

Quote:
I love how the immediate reaction is to get rid of something when something happens to a man.


Who said that, because it happened to a man--as in: but-for his biological sex...--Title IX has got to go?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:19 am 
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Quote:
The student, "John Doe,"
Quote:
His father, Tom Rossley,


dumbass

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:19 am 
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Tad Queasy wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Quote:
The Title IX investigation included all the familiar, horrifyingly unfair elements typical of these cases. Two officials, Mary Howell Sirna and Tricia McKinney, were tasked with handling the investigation. They decided which witnesses to interview, and—according to John—failed to interview people whose testimony would have helped John.

At the actual hearing, an administrator "did not allow testimony from anyone who was with Jane Doe after she left John Doe's room on the night of the alleged incident," even though these individuals could have testified to Jane's lack of alcohol-induced incapacity.

The evidence presented by the investigators to the hearing panel consisted solely of investigators' recollections of their conversations with witnesses—no transcripts, audio, or video tapes. This proved to be a problem. John, for instance, claims he told the investigator that he woke up in the morning fully clothed and with his shoes on (casting doubt on Jane's assertions about having sex in the bean bag chair). But this detail did not appear in the report that was presented to the hearing panel. Investigator Sirna reportedly said she couldn't recall John making such a claim during their interview. Because the interview was not recorded or transcribed, there was no way to tell who was right.

Incredibly, John's state of incapacitation was held against him. "Given that… respondent claims not to recall the event, we then must turn to the evidence provided by the Complainant," wrote the investigators.

The university also took Jane's side in other ways. When officials learned that John was bringing a lawyer to the hearing, they strongly advised Jane to do so as well. Acting Dean of Students Jerry Parker personally arranged for Jane to have a lawyer, forwarded all relevant legal documents to this lawyer, and even offered to talk to the lawyer on background about Jane's case. He did all of this, despite maintaining that the university was a neutral arbiter in the matter of Jane vs. John.


:shock: That's infuriating to even read.


I assume this guy is going to sue the fuck out of the school, and win?


He may not win. I think Nungesser lost his first suit vs. Columbia. Different facts though. I think the kid at Amherst won in a similar case to this one.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:20 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Poor men. We're always the victim.

I love how the immediate reaction is to get rid of something when something happens to a man.


Strawman of the Century Award for this post.


It is sad that men demand immediate action when a woman victimizes a man. It would be nice if they were courageous enough to do the same for women. :(

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:21 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Nas wrote:
Poor men. We're always the victim.



Who said that? Should we not care when men are victimized by arbitrary and capricious processes?

Quote:
I love how the immediate reaction is to get rid of something when something happens to a man.


Who said that, because it happened to a man--as in: but-for his biological sex...--Title IX has got to go?




Unless you believe women aren't equal to men and must be treated like children in sexual situations.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:21 am 
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This article is so one-sided. I don't think the real story is being told from either sides.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:22 am 
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Image

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:23 am 
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Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Poor men. We're always the victim.

I love how the immediate reaction is to get rid of something when something happens to a man.


Strawman of the Century Award for this post.


It is sad that men demand immediate action when a woman victimizes a man. It would be nice if they were courageous enough to do the same for women. :(


Who doesn't support women when they are truly victimized? Some may disagree with expanding victimization to include an "unwanted" greeting.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:24 am 
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Douchebag wrote:
This article is so one-sided. I don't think the real story is being told from either sides.


Exactly why universities shouldn't be pseudo-legal entities.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:25 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Poor men. We're always the victim.

I love how the immediate reaction is to get rid of something when something happens to a man.


Strawman of the Century Award for this post.


It is sad that men demand immediate action when a woman victimizes a man. It would be nice if they were courageous enough to do the same for women. :(


Who doesn't support women when they are truly victimized? Some may disagree with expanding victimization to include an "unwanted" greeting.


MANY men rarely believe that a woman is truly a victim. Sad!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:27 am 
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Ogie Oglethorpe wrote:
Image




i was sure that was a movie poster and Jason Biggs was the guy


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:28 am 
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Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Poor men. We're always the victim.

I love how the immediate reaction is to get rid of something when something happens to a man.


Strawman of the Century Award for this post.


It is sad that men demand immediate action when a woman victimizes a man. It would be nice if they were courageous enough to do the same for women. :(


Who doesn't support women when they are truly victimized? Some may disagree with expanding victimization to include an "unwanted" greeting.


MANY men rarely believe that a woman is truly a victim. Sad!


MANY think women are infants. Sad.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:30 am 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Nas wrote:
Poor men. We're always the victim.

I love how the immediate reaction is to get rid of something when something happens to a man.


Strawman of the Century Award for this post.


It is sad that men demand immediate action when a woman victimizes a man. It would be nice if they were courageous enough to do the same for women. :(


Who doesn't support women when they are truly victimized? Some may disagree with expanding victimization to include an "unwanted" greeting.


MANY men rarely believe that a woman is truly a victim. Sad!


MANY think women are infants. Sad.


Victim blaming is a sign of weakness. Sad!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:39 am 
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Douchebag wrote:
This article is so one-sided. I don't think the real story is being told from either sides.


I'm assuming their reporting on some of the specifics of the process is factual, and at that point the process itself becomes more concerning than who actually remembered what and started doing what to whom. If it is true that one party to a disputed interaction cannot likewise have a claim adjudicated by the tribunal for fear of "retaliation", that is scary enough (and for the moment, we won't explore the idea that this rule is directly targeting men), but to have the lack of recollection by the accused used against them is cause to burn the whole fucking thing to the ground.

Institutions of higher education, be they public or "private", adjudicating claims of sexual assault makes them state actors, and at that point, due process kicks in and needs to be preserved.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:53 am 
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Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Institutions of higher education, be they public or "private", adjudicating claims of sexual assault makes them state actors, and at that point, due process kicks in and needs to be preserved.

This is something that I never understand/understood and why I stay away from 'student affairs' side of academia as they are the ones who are usually behind investigating/adjudicating these issues.

While professors/academic affairs are the ones who get accused of brainwashing students and being the masterminds behind any social justice causes, I don't see it as much. In reality, I think it is the student affairs people (they are where housing & clubs/organizations belong) who do much of the agenda pushing. I only remotely associate b/c I'm the advisor to a psychology club on campus. What is crazy (especially to us on the academia side) is that they think they are equally as important as academic affairs.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:00 pm 
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Psycory wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Institutions of higher education, be they public or "private", adjudicating claims of sexual assault makes them state actors, and at that point, due process kicks in and needs to be preserved.

This is something that I never understand/understood and why I stay away from 'student affairs' side of academia as they are the ones who are usually behind investigating/adjudicating these issues.

While professors/academic affairs are the ones who get accused of brainwashing students and being the masterminds behind any social justice causes, I don't see it as much. In reality, I think it is the student affairs people (they are where housing & clubs/organizations belong) who do much of the agenda pushing. I only remotely associate b/c I'm the advisor to a psychology club on campus. What is crazy (especially to us on the academia side) is that they think they are equally as important as academic affairs.


I don't think the ideological stuff is as prevalent in the science departments. I don't envision pittmike pushing a "social justice" agenda. :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:04 pm 
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Psycory wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Institutions of higher education, be they public or "private", adjudicating claims of sexual assault makes them state actors, and at that point, due process kicks in and needs to be preserved.

This is something that I never understand/understood and why I stay away from 'student affairs' side of academia as they are the ones who are usually behind investigating/adjudicating these issues.

While professors/academic affairs are the ones who get accused of brainwashing students and being the masterminds behind any social justice causes, I don't see it as much. In reality, I think it is the student affairs people (they are where housing & clubs/organizations belong) who do much of the agenda pushing. I only remotely associate b/c I'm the advisor to a psychology club on campus. What is crazy (especially to us on the academia side) is that they think they are equally as important as academic affairs.

It's going off topic here, but you can also argue they are the ones who are pushing the cost of college skyward (well that and the fact we issue government backedstudent loans to anyone, regardless of the ROI on the cost of tuition vs. potential salaried earnings)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:07 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Psycory wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Institutions of higher education, be they public or "private", adjudicating claims of sexual assault makes them state actors, and at that point, due process kicks in and needs to be preserved.

This is something that I never understand/understood and why I stay away from 'student affairs' side of academia as they are the ones who are usually behind investigating/adjudicating these issues.

While professors/academic affairs are the ones who get accused of brainwashing students and being the masterminds behind any social justice causes, I don't see it as much. In reality, I think it is the student affairs people (they are where housing & clubs/organizations belong) who do much of the agenda pushing. I only remotely associate b/c I'm the advisor to a psychology club on campus. What is crazy (especially to us on the academia side) is that they think they are equally as important as academic affairs.


I don't think the ideological stuff is as prevalent in the science departments. I don't envision pittmike pushing a "social justice" agenda. :lol:

Granted my alma mater is the exception, but since Purdue was primarily an Engineering, Sciences, and Ag school, the campus was politically neutral during my time. I can't remember any major demonstrations with more than a dozen or so people. I guess engineering professors rightfully know their job is to teach thermodynamics and signals, not social justice.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:11 pm 
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Curious Hair wrote:
Quote:
The student, "John Doe,"
Quote:
His father, Tom Rossley,


dumbass




:lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:16 pm 
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Why did he put himself in that situation? He had to have known when he went to that car what was happening.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:18 pm 
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Joe Orr Road Rod wrote:
Psycory wrote:
Juice's Lecture Notes wrote:
Institutions of higher education, be they public or "private", adjudicating claims of sexual assault makes them state actors, and at that point, due process kicks in and needs to be preserved.

This is something that I never understand/understood and why I stay away from 'student affairs' side of academia as they are the ones who are usually behind investigating/adjudicating these issues.

While professors/academic affairs are the ones who get accused of brainwashing students and being the masterminds behind any social justice causes, I don't see it as much. In reality, I think it is the student affairs people (they are where housing & clubs/organizations belong) who do much of the agenda pushing. I only remotely associate b/c I'm the advisor to a psychology club on campus. What is crazy (especially to us on the academia side) is that they think they are equally as important as academic affairs.


I don't think the ideological stuff is as prevalent in the science departments. I don't envision pittmike pushing a "social justice" agenda. :lol:


In nearly 12 years here in the medical school I have never had a social justice discussion with anyone. It may have to do with we deal with grad students and post docs rather than the undergrads. Or it may just be the subject matter doesn't really lend itself to that.

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