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Basketball controversy
https://mail.chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=115759
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Author:  RFDC [ Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Basketball controversy

Here in southwest MO there is a controversy going on from a high school basketball game. Here is an article with video about the situation:

http://www.ozarkssportszone.com/2019/01 ... hrow-line/

The team in question has triplets that are on the team. Their father is the coach and principal of the school. They were caught switching out in an end of the game situation to get a better free throw shooter at the line. There were two incidents of it caught on video during the same game. There have also been rumors around that if one of the triplets is in foul trouble they will swap uniforms at half time to keep one of the better players on the court more.

Some are furious about it and want the team stripped of the tournament championship...while others think it is no big deal as people have switched free throw shooters for years ...with the whole mindset of if you are cheating you arent trying and if the refs dont notice it then it is their fault.


Just curious what the fine brethren here at CFMB think.... is it bad...is it no big deal?

Author:  Dr. Kenneth Noisewater [ Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basketball controversy

Trying to switch out a free-thrower shooter has always been done. We'd always try it.

Switching jerseys to avoid foul trouble is out of bounds I think.

The former is trying to take advantage of a ref not doing his job. The latter is something that a ref would be unable to catch.

Author:  Mr. Reason [ Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basketball controversy

It’s Missouri, no one cares.

Author:  RFDC [ Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basketball controversy

Mr. Reason wrote:
It’s Missouri, no one cares.

:lol: Coming from where you live, that is great!

Author:  KDdidit [ Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basketball controversy

Sounds like a pretty shitty coach, principal, and dad.

Author:  Dr. Kenneth Noisewater [ Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basketball controversy

The free-throw shooter is gamesmanship.

The jersey-changing is just flat-out cheating.

Author:  Harvard Dan [ Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basketball controversy

Had an observer at a summer referee camp do this to the crew I was working with to see if we noticed. First thing I do when calling a shooting foul or a common foul while in the bonus is to communicate to my partners who my shooter is. If a time out is called I make sure to communicate who the shooter is. This situation happens...

Author:  good dolphin [ Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basketball controversy

this has to be psychologically scarring for the triplet who is getting pulled off the line and taking on extra fouls

Author:  Brick [ Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basketball controversy

What a terrible father.

Author:  K Effective [ Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basketball controversy

I took the liberty to pass this OP on to my cousin, a referee and the trainer for the local HS referee association. His reply:


Cousin Freddy wrote:
This has been making the rounds for a couple of days on the four or five officiating Facebook discussion boards I frequent. Quite crass. Rule 10-4-6f ascribes a player technical foul for "...knowingly attempting a free throw...to which the player was not entitled." Of course, the official has to know this is being done. There's a lot of things going on after a foul is called and most just trust the right player is going to be going to the line, like happens 9999 out of 10000 times. Only two area coaches have pulled this, and both times we suckered for it. One is the boys' coach of a team that rhymes with redacted and the other a girls' of a team that rhymes with redacted


It's typically pregamed that the partners of the calling official vocalize "I've got your shooter" while the calling official goes to report.


Probably won't go on for long- I'd vote for a Sharpie on the biceps of each at tip and half. Any more than that and you're probably getting sued for accusing them of something, or assault.

Author:  Dr. Kenneth Noisewater [ Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basketball controversy

Is the free throw switch really unheard of? We'd try that frequently as long as the better shooter was close to the foul. That shooter would go to the line "assuming" the foul was against him.

It would work from time to time.

Author:  rogers park bryan [ Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basketball controversy

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
The free-throw shooter is gamesmanship.

The jersey-changing is just flat-out cheating.

Both flat out cheating. Both trying to get one over on the ref. One of them just goes to an extreme.

Author:  Dr. Kenneth Noisewater [ Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basketball controversy

rogers park bryan wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
The free-throw shooter is gamesmanship.

The jersey-changing is just flat-out cheating.

Both flat out cheating. Both trying to get one over on the ref. One of them just goes to an extreme.


If the ref can't keep the number of the guy that got fouled straight, that's on the ref. No different than taking advantage of a ref making a bad call. Nobody is going to say, "Sorry, Mr. Ref, I actually hit that ball out of bounds."

The jersey switching is cheating and a ref would not be able to catch that.

Author:  Don Tiny [ Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basketball controversy

The father should be prohibited from coaching any HS sports for a period of time at least a year, preferably more.

Author:  Brick [ Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basketball controversy

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Is the free throw switch really unheard of? We'd try that frequently as long as the better shooter was close to the foul. That shooter would go to the line "assuming" the foul was against him.

It would work from time to time.
It depends how blatant it is. Most fouls are shooting fouls and it is fairly obvious to everyone who the shooter is.

The jersey swapping is a bannable offense.

Author:  man of few opinions [ Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basketball controversy

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
The free-throw shooter is gamesmanship.

The jersey-changing is just flat-out cheating.

Both flat out cheating. Both trying to get one over on the ref. One of them just goes to an extreme.


If the ref can't keep the number of the guy that got fouled straight, that's on the ref. No different than taking advantage of a ref making a bad call.


It is a lot different. If a ref makes a bad call, that is 100% his call and it is out of the coaches hands. On the other hand, if ref makes a call and the coach or players purposely tries to deceive him by sneaking the wrong player to the line, that is an attempt at cheating, no matter how hard you try to deflect it by saying "the ref should be paying better attention". The refs do the best they can to keep it all straight despite all the distractions, and to have coaches and players purposely trying to take advantage of these distractions to gain an advantage is certainly an attempt at cheating.

Author:  Dr. Kenneth Noisewater [ Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basketball controversy

I agree that it is by definition cheating.

But players are attempting to deceive/distract the refs all throughout every game. It's up to the refs to manage it. If a guy intentionally flops when he isn't touched, is he cheating? I guess you could argue that he is but it happens in every game.

I'm just saying certain things are part of the game, even if they are skirting the rules or lack integrity.

The foul switching thing is probably higher on the scale of cheating than flopping or faking an injury to draw a whistle but I don't think the disparity is that great. These are all things that a ref would have the ability to correct. I'm not saying the ref needs to be 100% accurate at all times but, in theory, these are discoverable cheats.

Author:  billypootons [ Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basketball controversy

this guy is also the principal of the school? if he's willing to cheat this badly to win a basketball game, I question his ethics and ability to perform in his role as principal.

Author:  RFDC [ Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Basketball controversy

This thing has blown up to crazy levels down here. Curious if the state has any consequences. Rumors going around that state is putting pressure on school to suspend coach for a few games.

Author:  The Hawk [ Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basketball controversy

man of few opinions wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
rogers park bryan wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
The free-throw shooter is gamesmanship.

The jersey-changing is just flat-out cheating.

Both flat out cheating. Both trying to get one over on the ref. One of them just goes to an extreme.


If the ref can't keep the number of the guy that got fouled straight, that's on the ref. No different than taking advantage of a ref making a bad call.


It is a lot different. If a ref makes a bad call, that is 100% his call and it is out of the coaches hands. On the other hand, if ref makes a call and the coach or players purposely tries to deceive him by sneaking the wrong player to the line, that is an attempt at cheating, no matter how hard you try to deflect it by saying "the ref should be paying better attention". The refs do the best they can to keep it all straight despite all the distractions, and to have coaches and players purposely trying to take advantage of these distractions to gain an advantage is certainly an attempt at cheating.


That should be a suspension for any coach who does it. I would also consider a forfeiture of the game.

Author:  RFDC [ Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Basketball controversy

Latest I have read appeared that the state is not going to issue any punishment, but is pushing the local school to punish the coach/team. My guess is something will happen on Monday

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