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Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
https://mail.chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=121207		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  IMU [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Which lane are you in?

Do you continue to support all stay at home and business closure orders in order to slow down the spread of COVID-19 whenever possible? Knowing that this is at the sacrifice of people's livelihoods and their current access to health insurance.

Or do you support a plan of action now to return society to a somewhat normal state come May 1 or some other not-too-far-off date. Hopefully this will allow most businesses to recover, but may increase the spread of the virus and total deaths. However, the info we have suggests that these deaths are mostly occurring among those that are 'immunocompromised' anyway.
Author:  Antarctica [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Damage has already been done. You can reopen everything on May first and it wont matter, they're all terrified wearing stupid masks while they drive around town.

They should've done like Sweden and just taken the hit. If hospitals get overwhelmed start triaging and sending people home with morphine.

So I dont know what to do, we've already sacrificed the global economy at the altar of this panic...should we just see it through now? Actually eradicate the thing so at least we can claim some sort of victory? Or do we at least let the people who want to get on their lives get on with it, rona be damned? I am obviously in the camp that says open things up, but there is a compelling argument not to.
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Its time. Very slowly start lifting restrictions that first week of May, and continue to do so little by little until things are relatively normal. If people choose to stay in, or wear gloves and masks, then that is their choice

I know concerts and giant fest type gatherings is probably out of the question at this point. Minor league baseball and outdoor events with a few hundred people hopefully can take place in the summer though. (insert JERRY STATE OF IL RATE PARK Sox joke here)
Author:  denisdman [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Antarctica wrote:
Damage has already been done. You can reopen everything on May first and it wont matter, they're all terrified wearing stupid masks while they drive around town.

They should've done like Sweden and just taken the hit. If hospitals get overwhelmed start triaging and sending people home with morphine.

So I dont know what to do, we've already sacrificed the global economy at the altar of this panic...should we just see it through now? Actually eradicate the thing so at least we can claim some sort of victory? Or do we at least let the people who want to get on their lives get on with it, rona be damned? I am obviously in the camp that says open things up, but there is a compelling argument not to.


I would have preferred the Sweden route. The post mortem on all this will be interesting.
Author:  Caller Bob [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
They took our freedoms away instantly but will take their time restoring them. SMH.
Author:  Kirkwood [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
the mask scare mongering has screwed everything up. maskers are giving dirty looks to all the non-maskers instead of minding their own fucking business. there's so much distrust now.

when they re-open things there's going to be so many overly sensitive vaginas freaking out if someone is too close or there are too many people congregating together.
Author:  Antarctica [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Caller Bob wrote:
They took our freedoms away instantly but will take their time restoring them. SMH.

Many of them will never be restored. The left only cares about the constitution when it comes to saving the USPS.
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
denisdman wrote:
I would have preferred the Sweden route. The post mortem on all this will be interesting.
The healthcare system is going to be completely revamped. Not from the Gov't or business perspective, but from the doctor's and nurse's perspective. No longer are people with business and marketing degrees going to be calling the shots for healthcare workers. Those management jobs will now be going to people who have actually been at the bedside treating patients.

The next five years or so is going to be very interesting.
Author:  Brick [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Initial surge avoided. Open back up.
Author:  sjboyd0137 [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Kirkwood wrote:
the mask scare mongering has screwed everything up. maskers are giving dirty looks to all the non-maskers instead of minding their own fucking business.


This...and fuck them.

Kirkwood wrote:
when they re-open things there's going to be so many overly sensitive vaginas freaking out if someone is too close or there are too many people congregating together.


Yep. And fuck them, too.
Author:  Kirkwood [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Those management jobs will now be going to people who have actually been at the bedside treating patients.

Doubt it.

Frank Coztansa wrote:
The healthcare system is going to be completely revamped.

This will be the interesting thing to watch. With ~20M+ people laid off that's a ton of people now without health insurance. For people with commercial insurance, their premiums are going to skyrocket as insurers work to price and recoup the costs related to COVID.
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
I think it will, Kirkwood. It won't happen overnight, but Dr's and nurses are going to use this as a springboard to getting what they want.

Healthcare has gone towards patient satisfaction vs patient treatment. I don't really give a shit I snap my ankle and the Dr who treats me is a surly bastard or not. But the guy who is the CEO of Advocate does care. If I'm fixed up good is what matters.
Author:  Curious Hair [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Kirkwood wrote:
This will be the interesting thing to watch. With ~20M+ people laid off that's a ton of people now without health insurance. For people with commercial insurance, their premiums are going to skyrocket as insurers work to price and recoup the costs related to COVID.

Trump could win in a landslide and kill the Democratic Party forever if he started pushing for Medicare For All. Do it for the Small Business Owners.
Author:  Antarctica [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Frank Coztansa wrote:
I think it will, Kirkwood. It won't happen overnight, but Dr's and nurses are going to use this as a springboard to getting what they want.

They are paid like double in the USA compared to anywhere else. American healthcare facilities are palatial, too. The equipment is new and incredible. Experience and education standards in the USA are the world's strictest, so they dont have to worry about increased labour competition.

What more could they want?

Seriously, if I hear an American doctor or nurse complaining about their station in life I have to assume they are just bitching for the sake of having a good bitch.
Author:  Chet Coppock's Fur Coat [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
There is established public policy on the trade off between life and economy/money. It's been there for years. It's been used in countless situations, including the 9/11 Commission trying to figure out what to award to first responders who perished. It is bi-partisan. The trade off number was last updated during the Obama administration, but had been around going back to at least Bush W and probably to before Clinton.

I want that policy framework used and explained to the public, in terms that a third grader can understand.
Author:  Kirkwood [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Curious Hair wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
This will be the interesting thing to watch. With ~20M+ people laid off that's a ton of people now without health insurance. For people with commercial insurance, their premiums are going to skyrocket as insurers work to price and recoup the costs related to COVID.

Trump could win in a landslide and kill the Democratic Party forever if he started pushing for Medicare For All. Do it for the Small Business Owners.

If Democrats began to run on an anti-MFA platform he'd get it done. :lol:
Author:  Curious Hair [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Kirkwood wrote:
If Democrats began to run on an anti-MFA platform he'd get it done. :lol:

Began? lol
Author:  Antarctica [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Kirkwood wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
This will be the interesting thing to watch. With ~20M+ people laid off that's a ton of people now without health insurance. For people with commercial insurance, their premiums are going to skyrocket as insurers work to price and recoup the costs related to COVID.

Trump could win in a landslide and kill the Democratic Party forever if he started pushing for Medicare For All. Do it for the Small Business Owners.

If Democrats began to run on an anti-MFA platform he'd get it done. :lol:

The fact that the democrats have this kind of power over Trump's platform yet continue to chose the path of infighting over ideological purity genuinely baffles me. All they have to do is pretend to oppose something and Trump will become a fervent supporter of it.
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Antarctica wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
I think it will, Kirkwood. It won't happen overnight, but Dr's and nurses are going to use this as a springboard to getting what they want.

They are paid like double in the USA compared to anywhere else. American healthcare facilities are palatial, too. The equipment is new and incredible. Experience and education standards in the USA are the world's strictest, so they dont have to worry about increased labour competition.

What more could they want?

Seriously, if I hear an American doctor or nurse complaining about their station in life I have to assume they are just bitching for the sake of having a good patriot.
You are really good at being really dense. If this isn't an act, its quite commendable actually.

My posts had nothing to do with healthcare workers' lot in life. It had everything to do with the way the are managed, muzzled, and held to standards that frankly aren't achievable most of the time. And said standards have little or nothing to do with the actual medicine and science most of the time.
Author:  Antarctica [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Frank Coztansa wrote:
My posts had nothing to do with healthcare workers lot in life. It had everything to do with the way the are managed, muzzled, and held to standards that frankly aren't achievable most of the time. And they have little or nothing to do with the actual medicine and science.

Name one industry where this is not the case.
Author:  Spaulding [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Frank Coztansa wrote:
You are really good at being really dense. If this isn't an act, its quite commendable actually.

My posts had nothing to do with healthcare workers lot in life. It had everything to do with the way the are managed, muzzled, and held to standards that frankly aren't achievable most of the time. And they have little or nothing to do with the actual medicine and science.


You know who put all those things in place and made healthcare harder and worse? It's not the hospitals, drs, nurses etc.
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
That's my point, Spaulding. Those things were put in place by business people and lawyers.


Antarctica wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
My posts had nothing to do with healthcare workers lot in life. It had everything to do with the way the are managed, muzzled, and held to standards that frankly aren't achievable most of the time. And they have little or nothing to do with the actual medicine and science.

Name one industry where this is not the case.
I'm not talking about any industry outside of healthcare.

Density = America's Posts over volume.
Author:  Brick [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Curious Hair wrote:
Kirkwood wrote:
This will be the interesting thing to watch. With ~20M+ people laid off that's a ton of people now without health insurance. For people with commercial insurance, their premiums are going to skyrocket as insurers work to price and recoup the costs related to COVID.

Trump could win in a landslide and kill the Democratic Party forever if he started pushing for Medicare For All. Do it for the Small Business Owners.

:lol: You are delusional. Medicaid For All is not going to sell.
Author:  Spaulding [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Frank Coztansa wrote:
That's my point, Spaulding. Those things were put in place by business people and lawyers.


In response to governmental laws, regulatory requirements, and demands. It's the governments fault. Nurses spend more time on paperwork than on patients.
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Spaulding wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
That's my point, Spaulding. Those things were put in place by business people and lawyers.
In response to governmental laws, regulatory requirements, and demands. It's the governments fault. Nurses spend more time on paperwork than on patients.
Agree 100%. Most politicians are businessmen/women and lawyers.
Author:  Nas [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
False choice. You can work to save lives without keeping 30% of people unemployed.
Author:  Curious Hair [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Medicaid For All

Industry shill alert! Industry shill alert!
Author:  Rod [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Author:  Brick [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Curious Hair wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Medicaid For All

Industry shill alert! Industry shill alert!

It's much more accurate.
Author:  Antarctica [ Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Save Lives at all Costs vs Plan to Normalcy
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Spaulding wrote:
Frank Coztansa wrote:
That's my point, Spaulding. Those things were put in place by business people and lawyers.
In response to governmental laws, regulatory requirements, and demands. It's the governments fault. Nurses spend more time on paperwork than on patients.
Agree 100%. Most politicians are businessmen/women and lawyers.

Ok you go try and get rid of regulations and see how that plays in the political discourse.
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