Chicago Fanatics Message Board :: View topic - Is it a coincidence that the Sox and the Bulls both missed?

I dunno. In 2005, all of the Sox spoke pretty highly of Reinsdorf. Even Frank Thomas, who as we all know would not have held anything back. His beef was with the front office more than JR I think.

The Bulls could have had Gasol but Pax did not want to part with the legendary Luol Deng.

What about the Cubs striking out looking in the Santana trade talks?

Or just striking out looking at anything thrown at them.

I've just finished reading Sam Smith's article today and got to thinking....
THe Sox swung and missed on Hunter, Cabrera, Fukodome (not so sure they were really in the mix on this one, they didn't preject his Cellular Field HR totals

), Rowand, I'm sure there's more.
Is it a coincidence? Or do players not feel too good about Reinsdorf?

See, I am thinking that JR is simply being cheap and letting his GM's take the blame.

Baku, you touched on something that also bothers me, the Sox appear to have a scary lack of talent coming down stream off the farm. Not a JR thing, more a KW thing.

Darkside wrote:

See, I am thinking that JR is simply being cheap and letting his GM's take the blame.

That certainly wouldn't surprise me, but still that statement seems like to general of a conclusion to come to. I don't find it hard to believe that Paxson is in love with 'his guys', there were even articles after the Gasol trade stating that the Bulls wouldn't part with any of their core group, they were trying to base the trade around Nocioni and draft picks, etc. That seems like a reasonable explanation as to why they couldn't land KG, Bryant, Gasol. Not that it necessarily makes sense to me, but I don't necessarily blame that on JR...I'm guessing this is because of the same reports stating he didn't want to go into luxury tax land. I can see not wanting to do that for Gasol, in this case.

As for the Sox, I still am not bitter they didn't land Hunter. As for some of the trades that went down, like Cabrera & Willis, the fact is the Sox just didn't have the prospects to deal that other teams wanted. I'm also not so sure about how Willis will pan out. I'm sure he'll do well, but I'm guessing around .500 or so

I really don't care if our luxury tax situation is through the roof like NY. No one should care about that. It's not our money. Chicago is the 3rd largest market, this isn't Indiana and we should compete for players like everyone else. Reinsdorf, hmmm Reins-dorf, I wonder why he's so cheap?...

Baku, you touched on something that also bothers me, the Sox appear to have a scary lack of talent coming down stream off the farm. Not a JR thing, more a KW thing.

Author:	Darkside [ Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Is it a coincidence that the Sox and the Bulls both missed?
I've just finished reading Sam Smith's article today and got to thinking. The Bulls swung and missed on Gasol, Bryant, and Garnett. There is a general feeling like they've done little or nothing to better this team via trade. THe Sox swung and missed on Hunter, Cabrera, Fukodome (not so sure they were really in the mix on this one, they didn't preject his Cellular Field HR totals ), Rowand, I'm sure there's more. Is it a coincidence? Or do players not feel too good about Reinsdorf?

Author:	FavreFan [ Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:21 pm ]
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I think it has more to do with the GM's being incompetent than players not wanting to come here. I dont want to criticize KW too much yet though, I would like to see how this next season shakes out before doing that. Paxson has definitely fucked up in not landing a marquee superstar(And I dont have Gasol in that category). KG or Kobe could very easily be on the Bulls right now. Thats undeniable. We would probably have Kobe right now if pax didnt feel like our SF who has never made an all star game and has lingering injury problems was "untouchable".

Author:	BD [ Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:02 pm ]
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I'm definitely bothered by the Bulls unwillingness to pay a luxury tax. I would understand it a lot more if the Bulls had said there's no way we are willing to do this, but Reinsdorf had been quoted as saying they would pay the tax if it were for a good team. Now, I get that the Bulls aren't currently a good team, but Paxson also refuses to make any trades involving his core of Hinrich, Deng and Gordon(I'm not sure if Thomas, Nocioni, Thabo and Noah are in this mix, though knowing Paxson's love of his draft picks (Nocioni being the only free agent signing in this mix) I wouldn't be surprised) so he clearly believes the team is better than it is playing, and Gasol would probably make this team a good team if it didn't involve trading a piece. I guess we know now at least that the Bulls won't be dealing with the luxery tax so we'll know how to approach any future rumors.

Author:	Frank Coztansa [ Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:06 pm ]
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I dunno. In 2005, all of the Sox spoke pretty highly of Reinsdorf. Even Frank Thomas, who as we all know would not have held anything back. His beef was with the front office more than JR I think. The Bulls could have had Gasol but Pax did not want to part with the legendary Luol Deng.

Author:	BD [ Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:08 pm ]
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Frank Coztansa wrote: I dunno. In 2005, all of the Sox spoke pretty highly of Reinsdorf. Even Frank Thomas, who as we all know would not have held anything back. His beef was with the front office more than JR I think. The Bulls could have had Gasol but Pax did not want to part with the legendary Luol Deng. The Bulls could have had Gasol if they were willing to pay the luxery tax. They wouldn't have had to trade Deng, Gordon or Hinrich. All they had to do was a S/T with P.J.Brown and then throw in a 1st round pick, one of their younger players, and then Duhon or Victor K.

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Author:	Beef Rockmore [ Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:09 pm ]
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What about the Cubs striking out looking in the Santana trade talks?

Author:	My Coach Vinny [ Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:11 pm ]
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Beef Rockmore wrote: What about the Cubs striking out looking in the Santana trade talks? Or just striking out looking at anything thrown at them.

Author:	Darkside [ Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:16 pm ]
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Beef Rockmore wrote: What about the Cubs striking out looking in the Santana trade talks? I really don't think the Cubs made an honest effort for Santana. The word at the time was Zambrano + Prospects. That and a shitload more money then currently owed on Zambrano. Something like 40 million more. This bait sucks, you need to do better homework. That being said, I am not happy he's in the NL. At least he's not in the Central.

Author:	Darkside [ Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:20 pm ]
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Coach Crapowski wrote: Or just striking out looking at anything thrown at them. 2007 White Sox Strikeouts: 1149 2007 Cubs Strikeouts: 1054 2007 American League average: 1053 2007 National League average: 1091 I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin.

Author:	Regular Reader [ Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Is it a coincidence that the Sox and the Bulls both miss
Darkside wrote: I've just finished reading Sam Smith's article today and got to thinking.... THe Sox swung and missed on Hunter, Cabrera, Fukodome (not so sure they were really in the mix on this one, they didn't preject his Cellular Field HR totals ), Rowand, I'm sure there's more. Is it a coincidence? Or do players not feel too good about Reinsdorf? Lets see who really 'swung and missed' here, at least according to what was actually speculated/reported by some. ARod. Remember him? All of the "he loves Lou Pinella like a father" crap, but the Barons of Boystown took that pitch, and well, no. "Any" center fielder??? Well in the interests of protecting the paths for minor league prospects who likely will never pan out (see Corey Patterson, Jerome Walton, etc...) the Jr. Bears went after NO legitimate players? Brian Roberts, Erik Bedard....are the Cubbies being held up by the great Andy McPhail??? Any frontline starting pitcher who can be counted on in a pennant race, much less the playoffs or (ahem) World Series...nothing, unless you count Maddux from 3-4 years ago? A homegrown pitcher who wins at the great beergarden or a fat assed, no glove having 3rd baseman,...oh wait the Sox or Tigers were the only possible ports in that storm, RIGHT? Hell, they even whiffed on the great Kaz Matsui or So Taguchi, both of whom were rumored for arrival and touted as the 'pieces' for a meaningful stretch run. While we are on the subject of Asian question marks, if not failures, the lovable losers DID get Fukudome, a player who did as well in games anyone here actually saw as say...Alexi whatshisname...but has also never actually played in a major league. BUT, because the winning tradition rich Cubbies signed him, he is easily mistakable for the 'great' Aaron Rowand - who loves Chicago, loves the NL and is the epitome of the Chicago lunch pail toting/blue collar grinder who would have awakened the ghosts of say, pick your loser. Oh but wait, I can hear it now, starting for the Coo, # 57, Johann ... (nevermind )

Author:	W_Z [ Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:48 am ]
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Stripping down the Sox bias of RR's post, I agree completely as a Cubs fan. I'm pretty pissed off the Cubs didn't go out and really go for someone. Hendry loves his guys too much. Just as a side note...you WOULDN'T give up Zambrano to get Santana? Don't you think you're getting a real 'ace' instead of this head...case? Prospects in my mind aren't what the Cubs need right now. If they're serious about winning a world series NOW, then they should be getting guys who are proven NOW. Not 8 years ago, not 5 years from now. "What happened to then?" "We passed then." "When?" "Just now. We're at now now."

Author:	Darkside [ Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:44 am ]
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This really shouldn't be a flame war about the Cubs missing on prospects 12 years ago. A. this has nothing to do whatsoever with the Cubs at all, B. every team, over the course of a decade, will have swings and misses. I was struck by the fact that this year, this single year, the Sox missed most of their targets. And the Bulls never had any targets. I know some of you will take any chance you get to take a shot at the Cubs, but I would like a little more objectivity on this particular topic. See, I am thinking that JR is simply being cheap and letting his GM's take the blame.

Author:	Bagels [ Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:51 am ]
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Darkside wrote: See, I am thinking that JR is simply being cheap and letting his GM's take the blame. That certainly wouldn't surprise me, but still that statement seems like to general of a conclusion to come to. I don't find it hard to believe that Paxson is in love with 'his guys', there were even articles after the Gasol trade stating that the Bulls wouldn't part with any of their core group, they were trying to base the trade around Nocioni and draft picks, etc. That seems like a reasonable explanation as to why they couldn't land KG, Bryant, Gasol. Not that it necessarily makes sense to me, but I don't necessarily blame that on JR...I'm guessing this is because of the same reports stating he didn't want to go into luxury tax land. I can see not wanting to do that for Gasol, in this case. As for the Sox, I still am not bitter they didn't land Hunter. As for some of the trades that went down, like Cabrera & Willis, the fact is the Sox just didn't have the prospects to deal that other teams wanted. I'm also not so sure about how Willis will pan out. I'm sure he'll do well, but I'm guessing around .500 or so

Author:	Darkside [ Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:55 am ]
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Baku, you touched on something that also bothers me, the Sox appear to have a scary lack of talent coming down stream off the farm. Not a JR thing, more a KW thing.

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Author:	Bagels [ Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:01 am ]
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Darkside wrote: Baku, you touched on something that also bothers me, the Sox appear to have a scary lack of talent coming down stream off the farm. Not a JR thing, more a KW thing. True, seems to have been going on for a long time. I believe this discussion took place awhile ago in the Sox forum, but how many prospects have the Sox had that panned out for them or any other team they were traded to? A few, sure...Chris Young, Crede for example, but not many. After a period of failure, I'm sure other GM's aren't exactly ga-ga over a 'top' prospect of yours

Author:	enigma [ Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:01 am ]
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Well according to Bruce Levine, Santana wanted to go to the East Coast and to a team that has spring training in Florida. Take that for what it's worth. I think this is an indictment of the Cubs minor league system, and you can probably include the Sox too. On one hand the Cubs had to give up Zambrano plus prospects (if the report is true) to obtain Santana. On the other hand the Mets got the deal done just by using prospects and without giving up already proven major league talent. It's obvious that other teams do not value the Cubs or Sox farm systems and what they produce, and they are probably right. In the Bedard deal, I have read reports that one of the players Seattle gave up, I believe his name is Adam Jones, might turn out to be the best player in the deal. Do the Cubs or Sox have anyone in their farm systems the caliber of a Jones, Jacob Ellsbury or Phillip Hughes (the Yankee prospect)?

Author:	BD [ Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:30 am ]
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Baku wrote: Darkside wrote: See, I am thinking that JR is simply being cheap and letting his GM's take the blame. That certainly wouldn't surprise me, but still that statement seems like to general of a conclusion to come to. I don't find it hard to believe that Paxson is in love with 'his guys', there were even articles after the Gasol trade stating that the Bulls wouldn't part with any of their core group, they were trying to base the trade around Nocioni and draft picks, etc. That seems like a reasonable explanation as to why they couldn't land KG, Bryant, Gasol. Not that it necessarily makes sense to me, but I don't necessarily blame that on JR...I'm guessing this is because of the same reports stating he didn't want to go into luxury tax land. I can see not wanting to do that for Gasol, in this case. As for the Sox, I still am not bitter they didn't land Hunter. As for some of the trades that went down, like Cabrera & Willis, the fact is the Sox just didn't have the prospects to deal that other teams wanted. I'm also not so sure about how Willis will pan out. I'm sure he'll do well, but I'm guessing around .500 or so I really don't care if our luxury tax situation is through the roof like NY. No one should care about that. It's not our money. Chicago is the 3rd largest market, this isn't Indiana and we should compete for players like everyone else. Reinsdorf, hmmm Reins-dorf, I wonder why he's so cheap?...

Author:	Bagels [ Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:43 am ]
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BD wrote: I really don't care if our luxury tax situation is through the roof like NY. No one should care about that. It's not our money. Chicago is the 3rd largest market, this isn't Indiana and we should compete for players like everyone else. Reinsdorf, hmmm Reins-dorf, I wonder why he's so cheap?... Well then I guess you feel the Sox should have signed Hunter to whatever the price tag was? It's a fine line, sure. And it's not our money but it still is a business...if they went over the luxury tax threshold to sign Gasol, it would have cost them big time financially. And Gasol is not the piece to push them over the top. Had it been Garnett or Kobe, sure. Those are franchise players, Gasol is not. I think it's just smart business. If you're on the verge of paying a luxury tax and you don't go over, you save the money you would have spent paying the tax, plus you end up getting a 'rebate'. I'm not saying I don't want them to get any top tier players, of course I do, but I still recognize it's a business at the end of the day, and if I were running the business I might be thinking hard about writing blank checks too.

Author:	Frank Coztansa [ Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:45 am ]
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Darkside wrote: Baku, you touched on something that also bothers me, the Sox appear to have a scary lack of talent coming down stream off the farm. Not a JR thing, more a KW thing. KEnny either doesn't know this or doesn't realize it.