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Is Health Care a Right?
https://mail.chicagofanatics.com/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=81346		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  leashyourkids [ Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Is Health Care a Right?
The primitives are appalled by the question. The progressives are appalled by the question. It's not a partisan question. What do you think?
Author:  jimmypasta [ Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
So poor people should die before their time because they can't afford treatment?
Author:  leashyourkids [ Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
jimmypasta wrote:
So poor people should die before their time because they can't afford treatment?


Are you asking me?
Author:  jimmypasta [ Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
leashyourkids wrote:
jimmypasta wrote:
So poor people should die before their time because they can't afford treatment?


Are you asking me?


Your the only one here...It's your move.
Author:  Chus [ Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
Image
Author:  leashyourkids [ Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
jimmypasta wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
jimmypasta wrote:
So poor people should die before their time because they can't afford treatment?


Are you asking me?


Your the only one here...It's your move.


I think basic health care is a right in a wealthy country such as ours, yes. What do you think, James?
Author:  jimmypasta [ Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
I agree. I don't know if Obama care is the answer. It might have been easier to subsidize smaller companies (and large) who could offer insurance to part time employees. Since finding a decent FT job seems like a dream to a lot of people,a lot of Americans are working two PT jobs instead. It would be nice if Medical was offered with more PT jobs.
Author:  veganfan21 [ Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
In a way, I wonder if the question is also sort of asking should health care be commoditized to the degree it is today. Is that what you're getting at, leash? Should health care be privatized?
Author:  Scorehead [ Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
veganfan21 wrote:
In a way, I wonder if the question is also sort of asking should health care be commoditized to the degree it is today. Is that what you're getting at, leash? Should health care be privatized?


Health care should be free.
Author:  Don Tiny [ Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
Love to see the person that said 'no' be brave and explain their answer.

I'd also love to shit gold dubloons .... I have a feeling that will happen before the former.
Author:  leashyourkids [ Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
veganfan21 wrote:
In a way, I wonder if the question is also sort of asking should health care be commoditized to the degree it is today. Is that what you're getting at, leash? Should health care be privatized?


I didn't have any specific purpose in asking. I was reading another thread which sort of touched on the topic and just wondered what people thought.

I do think basic health care is a right in a country as wealthy as ours. However, I also wish health care was individually priced and that premiums reflected individual risk as opposed to the group medical systems we have in place now. We could still subsidize premiums for people with conditions from birth. However, smokers and alcoholics shouldn't get free rides, for example.
Author:  Don Tiny [ Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
Others irresponsible assholes who shouldn't get "free rides":

People who work on skyscrapers or in mines
Mountain Climbers
Skiers
Pilots
Motorcyclists
Pyrotechnicians
People who ride horses
Those who indulge in promiscuity
People who walk to work and get hit by a bus because they didn't look both ways


Maybe - just fucking maybe - it's time to take a break from trying to figure out who doesn't deserve help and instead just fucking help everyone for a while ... it ain't Fred the Wino who's actually a danger to our pocketbooks anyway.
Author:  FavreFan [ Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
Don Tiny wrote:
Love to see the person that said 'no' be brave and explain their answer.

I'd also love to shit gold dubloons .... I have a feeling that will happen before the former.

I voted no. I don't really have a complicated, brave explanation. I just don't think it should be mandatory to pay for other citizens health care via taxes. I don't think of that as an outrageous opinion, sorry.
Author:  pittmike [ Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
Don Tiny wrote:
Love to see the person that said 'no' be brave and explain their answer.

I'd also love to shit gold dubloons .... I have a feeling that will happen before the former.



I also voted no. I do not believe health care is some sort of constitutional right. I would like everyone that is sick or majorly ill be taken care of in some manner. I do not the clusterfuck that Obamacare is and the way it was rammed through. Sorry I cannot offer a solution but that's my 2 cents.
Author:  Seacrest [ Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
leashyourkids wrote:
jimmypasta wrote:
leashyourkids wrote:
jimmypasta wrote:
So poor people should die before their time because they can't afford treatment?


Are you asking me?


Your the only one here...It's your move.


I think basic health care is a right in a wealthy country such as ours, yes. What do you think, James?


Is healthcare just a right in wealthy countries then?
Author:  veganfan21 [ Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
leashyourkids wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
In a way, I wonder if the question is also sort of asking should health care be commoditized to the degree it is today. Is that what you're getting at, leash? Should health care be privatized?


I didn't have any specific purpose in asking. I was reading another thread which sort of touched on the topic and just wondered what people thought.

I do think basic health care is a right in a country as wealthy as ours. However, I also wish health care was individually priced and that premiums reflected individual risk as opposed to the group medical systems we have in place now. We could still subsidize premiums for people with conditions from birth. However, smokers and alcoholics shouldn't get free rides, for example.



My bad, I just saw Don Tiny's post in the other thread for the first time, just now:

Don Tiny wrote:
Terry's Peeps wrote:
Instead of blaming the law or Obama, why not blame companies trying to find every way possible to avoid having to offer health insurance to its employees?

We as a citizenry will do all we can to make sure businesses make the most profits they can.



Actually, a solid entry in the top five all-time biggest errors committed by (say it with me) We The People was to not only allow healthcare to become a commodity rather than an inalienable right, but then to compound that shitty decision by tying it to employment.


I sympathize with this POV.
Author:  Jaw Breaker [ Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
Quote:
I think basic health care is a right


The key word in that statement is "basic," and you can also throw in "preventative" to the debate.

The problem is determining which treatments and therapies should be provided for those who cannot pay for them. Should an 80-yr old be entitled to hip and knee replacements? Should someone be given free birth control pills or Viagra? Should a douchebag like Bradley Manning be given a taxpayer-subsidized sex change operation?
Author:  Darkside [ Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
Don Tiny wrote:
Love to see the person that said 'no' be brave and explain their answer.

I'd also love to shit gold dubloons .... I have a feeling that will happen before the former.

OK I will.

Truth is that it is not a right. Not yet.

The question is "should it be a right.?"
Author:  Seacrest [ Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
Jaw Breaker wrote:
Quote:
I think basic health care is a right


The key word in that statement is "basic," and you can also throw in "preventative" to the debate.

The problem is determining which treatments and therapies should be provided for those who cannot pay for them. Should an 80-yr old be entitled to hip and knee replacements? Should someone be given free birth control pills or Viagra? Should a douchebag like Bradley Manning be given a taxpayer-subsidized sex change operation?



Well said JB.
Author:  bigfan [ Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
Once again, go back to the money.

Why does healthcare cost so much? because of insurance. Attempts to cap damages, are always met with resistance.

The resistance sure isn't from the masses, it from the very small minority of large law firms that make a living on huge settlements for medical malpractice cases.

I know Doctors who make $300K a year and pay $75K a year in insurance premiums. I actually hate hearing them complain as they are still doing fine, but they expect to be rich like kings. Sorry, that part is not my problem. However, that is way too much in insurance premiums, but it has to be that way thanks to the Lawyers.

I know this was an original Obama agenda, but it sure dropped to the wayside, as it didnt directly appeal to the masses who supported him, but if they understood anything, they would understand this iso why they cant afford healthcare!

Yes, there needs to be limits on lawsuits. Limits of how much the attorney takes and how much the suit can be for.

I think a family needs to be provided for if malpractice is found, they need to have medical costs and care taken into account. Lump sums payments of $3 Mill, correctly invested can support anyone for life. The point being, I dont anyone should become generationally wealthy due to a lawsuit.

Yes, there should be free healthcare and you know it will be poor quality compared to that which you pay for, simple. This is where the $85 bill a month we have been spending under the Obama years should have gone.

I just resent paying huge premiums so others can pay nothing. I thought I take care of that in my income taxes that I pay, or my real estate taxes, or my daily fees, fines, processing and handling charges I pay to government daily for having the right to exist.
Author:  IkeSouth [ Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
doctors tell insurance companies what a procedure will cost. insurance tell customer a higher number. customers overpays on insurance plan (higher deductible then needed as well), then the insurance company pays the doctor less then what the doctor originally asked for. WIN-WIN-WIN for insurance company, fucks everyone else. this is why obama wanted public OPTION. IF YOU WANT, you can select a government insured plan that actually has public OVERSIGHT on costs. but no, everyone fuckin hated that- thats socialism! so now were left with obamaFENDFORYOURFUCKINSELFcare and everyone hates that too. and if obama did nothing, they would still be pissed.
Author:  bigfan [ Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
Not talking about the cost of medical treatment for the insurance, but for the portion that the insurance companies set aside to pay lawyers. Its a staggering #$$$.

They dont even go to trial anymore. Its just a $$$ figure placed on everything. Settlement done. Lawyers takes 1/3 + expenses. Poor sap left with a few bucks after they pay their back bills and real expenses. Of course they can borrow from another friend of mine based on the validity of their lawsuit at the easy rate of 28-42%!!!
Author:  Nas [ Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
I think it should be a right but it is unlikely to ever become one because imperfect people will demand a perfect system. Right now it is a for profit system with so many special interest involved that makes it damn near impossible to truly reform the system.

I really believe BF is trolling this subject or is blinded by his dislike of Obama. Tort reform would not dramatically reduce cost. We're talking about a 2% savings. It's nearly the equivalent of saying getting rid of food stamps will greatly reduce our deficit. Right now you are currently paying the health insurance for anyone that uses the ER fo their health care. Obamacare isn't requiring you to pay for anyone else health care. It is by far the biggest giveaway to big business in recent history. They will get 30 million new mandatory customers immediately. The ones that can't pay will be covered by the government. They're offering to continue increasing premiums for this great gift. Only someone blinded or severely misinformed could view this as a gift for the poor.
Author:  conns7901 [ Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
Healthcare should be a not for profit industry but that will never happen. My wife spend two nights in a hospital and cost was 30k. Thankfully our insurance covered all but a few hundred dollars but a one hour surgery and two nights should not cost that much money.
Author:  Don Tiny [ Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
Darkside wrote:
Don Tiny wrote:
Love to see the person that said 'no' be brave and explain their answer.

I'd also love to shit gold dubloons .... I have a feeling that will happen before the former.

OK I will.

Truth is that it is not a right. Not yet.

The question is "should it be a right.?"


C'mon, I expect better from a lot dumber people .... the obvious intent was to ask whether it should be a right, not is it a right; he wasn't playing dictionary or something.

To those who don't think basic healthcare isn't a right, I am very curious what you would think if someone you gave half a damn about found themselves needing help and simply couldn't get it short of miraculous intervention .... I have a feeling your tune would change damn fast. It's really easy to run your mouth from a place of plenty; not so much when your at the complete mercy of chance charity, let alone having it occur in time.

bigfan wrote:
I just resent paying huge premiums so others can pay nothing. I thought I take care of that in my income taxes that I pay, or my real estate taxes, or my daily fees, fines, processing and handling charges I pay to government daily for having the right to exist.


First of all, too bad .... nobody else gives a damn if you can't spend that extra day on vacation.

Second, up until this asinine paragraph, you were right on, which will chap Baby's ass for sure.

Third, would you like to direct me to the data that shows the government, at any level, budgeting money for, say, covering hospital write-offs and forgiveness of debt? For doctors who don't get that $8k for lasik, setting a broken arm, or a tit job? I'll save you the trouble ... they don't, so you thought very wrong in this case.
Author:  Baby McNown [ Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
Chacho83 wrote:
Here's irony for you. Conservatives by and large are Judeo-Christian. Jesus told his followers to "cure" the sick free of charge. This country was founded "under God". So, in the eyes of your God is health care a right?

Following the actual teachings of Jesus in regards to the political views is something the Religious Right really has problems with.
Author:  Brick [ Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
No. It's not a right. A right indicates that regardless of circumstance, unless in an incredibly extreme set of circumstances, that a person should be granted full and complete access to it. For instance, your right to vote shouldn't be limited to only Presidential elections. Your right to free speech shouldn't only be limited to Tuesdays. I would guess that very few people think that people should be granted full and complete access to health care unless of course you feel that the government should be providing lasik and face lifts to anyone wants them.

Now, I know those examples are extreme, but it is used to illustrate the larger point here. It isn't a discussion of rights. It is a discussion as to what an industrialized society should choose to provide to every citizen. Now, I would argue that every citizen should be provided access to basic medical care. Do I think they have some right to it simply because they were born and/or moved here? No. It's just like I don't think they have a right to a house or a car or a boat. There are societies that take different approaches where citizens are given more, and there are societies where they are given significantly less. It's a fine balancing act, and when you start to call something a "right" you have to ask why people don't have the same rights to houses/cars/televisions/cell phones all of which are arguably more important to daily life than health care.

Now, this doesn't mean that we shouldn't provide healthcare in some form or another, and we do in a fairly poor manner to the very poor. Ironically, one of the largest drains on a hospital/doctor is the lack of payments FROM OUR GOVERNMENT! Our government is seeking to provide more medical care when they struggle to provide medical care now. The other problem is that when you are given something for "free" you take it for granted. You can find plenty of every day stories about how some poor patients treat a trip to the doctor. It goes anywhere from being entitled to even using the emergency room as a babysitter or hotel with room service. I am of the firm belief that every person, even if they have $10 to their name, should pay for every medical visit they have. It changes your perspective on what is important and what is simply not necessary. This is a pretty standard concept in just about any facet of life. If there is some financial cost to doing something, you will prioritize better. This is another reason why it isn't a right. I believe there should be qualifiers for your medical care as instead of it being an action, it is actually a service being rendered. Even if it's something as simple as anyone on Medicaid/Medicare pays $5 per visit.

As to Don Tiny's point about a relative/friend getting sick with no coverage I will say that it is sad but we have to be more realistic here. Many of us with good insurance are going to see either major decreases in our quality of health care or major increases in costs. This money can't come out of thin air. We can try bleeding dry the wallet of Bill Gates and Warren Buffett but you know they are smart enough to keep that money. We need more regulation and more options. Now, if the government wants to get involved in catastrophic care where for a small premium based on income you can be covered if you get cancer or in a car accident I'm all for it. Take it directly out of the welfare check and make it mandatory. Do the same for basic coverage. I actually really like the mandatory coverage of Obamacare. It's about the only really good thing about it.

So, no, not a right. It's something a society that can afford it can decide should be provided. I think our society should but I'm not ready to put it with the right to vote or the right to free speech.
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
Is it a wrong?
Author:  Darkside [ Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Is it a wrong?

It could be:

Image
Author:  Hawg Ass [ Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Health Care a Right?
Brick good to see you posting, I am not reading all of that but just wanted to say good to have you back.
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