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Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
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Author:  Don Tiny [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
(the link removes the mystery)

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/nhl-selling-more-arenas-nba-225020461--nhl.html

(excerpt)

From Nina Falcone of CSN Chicago, news of sellouts in the land of puck and lack thereof on the hardwood:

Throughout the 2013-14 season, 15 NHL markets have averaged at least 100 percent capacity in their home stands: The Detroit Red Wings, Chicago Blackhawks, Montreal Canadiens, Philadelphia Flyers, Toronto Maple Leafs, Calgary Flames, Vancouver Canucks, Pittsburgh Penguins, Washington Capitals, Minnesota Wild, Los Angeles Kings, New York Rangers, Boston Bruins, San Jose Sharks and Winnipeg Jets.

The Red Wings lead the charts at a 118.5 percent capacity, an average of 23,780 fans per game, while the Blackhawks take second at a 109.2 percent capacity, averaging 21,528 fans per game. (Note: Without the Winter Classic, the Red Wings are averaging 20,066 fans per game. If you don't count the outdoor game, the Blackhawks are leading the attendance charts. Expect the Blackhawks to get a healthy bump when they play their game at Soldier Field on March 1.)

The NBA, on the other hand, has only eight markets averaging at least 100 percent capacity this season: The Chicago Bulls, Dallas Mavericks, New York Knicks, Miami Heat, Golden State Warriors, Los Angeles Clippers, Oklahoma City Thunder and Houston Rockets.
Author:  Don Tiny [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
And to save someone the trouble, the seating difference is not huge at all ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Basketball_Association_arenas

NBA has an average capacity of 19,159.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Hockey_League_arenas

NHL has an average capacity of 18,379.
Author:  Bagels [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
Average NFL attendance dwarfs MLB
Author:  Hank Scorpio [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
Time for a strike!!
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
GEORGE: Jerry seem a little weird when I mentioned Nina?

ELAINE: Nina? Nina? No. Psshhh.. Not weird. No. Nina.

GEORGE: Why do you keep saying Nina?

ELAINe: I don't know. Nina. Nina!
Author:  redskingreg [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
Interesting that the Clippers are there but not the Lakers.
Author:  Curious Hair [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
Like I said in the NHL rolling business thread, you can't be surprised with this development. Pound for pound -- or game for game, I suppose -- the NHL is presenting a superior live experience to the NBA. We can bemoan many frustrating aspects of NHL hockey -- the point inflation, the cap-imposed parity, the inherent randomness of the game -- but when you add all those up, you get a highly competitive product that's fun to watch. And whereas the NBA has moved to a business model of Appreciating Greatness from the comfort of your couch whithersoever it may be, NHL fandom will now and forever be about your team and wanting your team to win, and generally that's going to be a team in a city close to you (or as close as one can reasonably be, in the cases of Calgary, Edmonton, and Winnipeg). While NHL telecasts have improved by leaps and bounds with the advent of 16:9 aspect and HDTV, the consensus even from casual fans and initiates is still that there's nothing like seeing hockey live. Can the same be said about basketball? College basketball, maybe, but certainly not the NBA. What can I get at a live NBA game that I can't get at home? I think of Dan's Rovellian expression of wonderment with going to a Bulls game: "we had a great time, and everything was sponsored!" So you get all the commercials and none of the Charles Barkley? I'll stay home.

Now, is trumpeting superior live attendance in 2014 just winning a race that's already been run, like having the best radio ratings in a world where everyone just uses Pandora and Spotify? Perhaps. But even though the NBA has chosen to be a popular TV show and taken the money from it, can it be good for the long-term health of the league to have all these moribund teams in dark, empty arenas? Sure, everyone's watching Thunder-Heat in GUANGZHOOOOOOOUUU, and sure, the Milwaukee Bucks and Orlando Magic get their slices of that pie, but what are they going to do about the fact that they still have 41 home games to sell tickets to and 70+ to locally telecast, games which have been all but totally devalued not only as live events to do but even something to watch because the teams are so hopeless? How much longer can you go on having a league that's such an exercise in futility across the board?

The scary part is that this is sort of what the NHL wants. When these hedge-fund crooks bought the Phoenix Coyotes, they made a big show out of telling everyone "we're not buying the Coyotes. We're buying one-thirtieth of the NHL." You don't say that if you just bought the Maple Leafs, you say that if all you want to do is get fat on TV contracts and revenue-sharing subsidy checks before doing a quick flip on your investment.

But for now, though, the NHL is beating the NBA at the arena business and they earned it -- I'd say it's about 40% their success and 60% the NBA's failure. The really stunning part is that this is all happening while the NHL willfully self-handicaps with an ill-advised footprint. If the league had stuck to its midwestern/northeastern/Canadian bedrock and not overextended itself into warm-weather transplant towns, they'd be slaughtering the NBA at the gate. Sub out its weak links for teams in your picks from Quebec City, Hartford, Seattle, Milwaukee, and Hamilton/K-W, and there would be no contest.
Author:  Don Tiny [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
Bagels wrote:
Average NFL attendance dwarfs MLB


Probably larger capacity for NFL stadiums, and 1/10 the number of games ... and this is about 100% capacity, not average attendance anyway.

As an aside, I just saw what the "new" Nordiques logo would have been .... were they purposefully trying to copy the Timberwolves? Yikes.
Author:  Douchebag [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
redskingreg wrote:
Interesting that the Clippers are there but not the Lakers.

Not really. There is nothing interesting about the Lakers.
Author:  Kirkwood [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
Curious Hair wrote:
What can I get at a live NBA game that I can't get at home?

I went to a Bucks/76ers game 4 years ago and saw Bango's birthday celebration during halftime. Benny the Bull, Phoenix Suns Gorilla, Hornets mascot and some others were there to celebrate. The dunk show they put on during half time is my favorite in person NBA memory.
Author:  badrogue17 [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
Douchebag wrote:
redskingreg wrote:
Interesting that the Clippers are there but not the Lakers.

Not really. There is nothing interesting about the Lakers.

Yeah if there's a more fair weather fan base than LA it'd be hard to find (maybe Miami ? ) . Historically when the Lakers have been bad their fans ditch them. Now that the Clippers are the up and comers they get the fatter slice of NBA pie in LA before they head over to Spy Bar.
Author:  Bagels [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
Don Tiny wrote:
Bagels wrote:
Average NFL attendance dwarfs MLB


Probably larger capacity for NFL stadiums, and 1/10 the number of games ... and this is about 100% capacity, not average attendance anyway..


I know , I was just trolling JORR
Author:  IkeSouth [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
what sells out more in the playoffs
Author:  pittmike [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
I would imagine the teams involved in playoffs sell out all those games.
Author:  Rod [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
Bagels wrote:
Don Tiny wrote:
Bagels wrote:
Average NFL attendance dwarfs MLB


Probably larger capacity for NFL stadiums, and 1/10 the number of games ... and this is about 100% capacity, not average attendance anyway..


I know , I was just trolling JORR


:lol: It didn't work.
Author:  Beebo [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
Golden State Warriors? Who woulda thought?
Author:  bigfan [ Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
Not sure why this is such an issue. Turn on any non Heat, Bulls, Mavs (add 3 more teams) game and 75% of the place is empty.
Author:  Curious Hair [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
I addressed why it may be an issue.
Author:  conns7901 [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
Curious Hair wrote:
I addressed why it may be an issue.


As long as Tv ratings are good it doesn't matter. NBA is about to get paid in next round of national TV deals. Granted this article is a year old but still interesting.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenha ... ble-teams/
Author:  Curious Hair [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
conns7901 wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
I addressed why it may be an issue.


As long as Tv ratings are good it doesn't matter.


And when they're not...? This still isn't the NFL; you can't make it on central revenue alone.
Author:  conns7901 [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
Curious Hair wrote:
conns7901 wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
I addressed why it may be an issue.


As long as Tv ratings are good it doesn't matter.


And when they're not...? This still isn't the NFL; you can't make it on central revenue alone.


Well if they actually sign a deal paying the league 2 billion a year for national broadcasting rights it will be a long time until there is a serious problem.
Author:  Bagels [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
Beebo wrote:
Golden State Warriors? Who woulda thought?


the Warriors probably have the best fan base in the NBA...yeah you can say OKC which is probably true since it's (literally) the only game in town
but I think the fact that for the majority of the last 20 years the Warriors have sucked , those fans deserve extra credit

take a look at the 2007 playoffs vs Dallas, not sure i've ever seen an NBA arena that crazy
Author:  rogers park bryan [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
Bagels wrote:
Beebo wrote:
Golden State Warriors? Who woulda thought?


the Warriors probably have the best fan base in the NBA...yeah you can say OKC which is probably true since it's (literally) the only game in town
but I think the fact that for the majority of the last 20 years the Warriors have sucked , those fans deserve extra credit

take a look at the 2007 playoffs vs Dallas, not sure i've ever seen an NBA arena that crazy

Image
Author:  Frank Coztansa [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
Any fans that dress like bumblebees are OK in my book.
Author:  bigfan [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
Curious Hair wrote:
conns7901 wrote:
Curious Hair wrote:
I addressed why it may be an issue.


As long as Tv ratings are good it doesn't matter.


And when they're not...? This still isn't the NFL; you can't make it on central revenue alone.

The NBA does REALLY WELL on International marketing $$$. They are well ahead of the NFL in that Department
Author:  Bagels [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
bigfan wrote:
The NBA does REALLY WELL on International marketing $$$. They are well ahead of the NFL in that Department


i knew there was a reason you liked Yao Ming so much
Author:  Don Tiny [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
Frank Coztansa wrote:
Any fans that dress like bumblebees are OK in my book.


All I can say is that your life is pretty plain.
Author:  sinicalypse [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
yeah CH, you're too liked/respected around here for biggie to properly tell you that he loves your posts but he'll only read them if they're short/er. by contrast i've heard that no less than ~30 times over the years =D

i have to provide a slight tangent and defend the NBA live experience; i'll always remember the date dec 4, 2010 because that's the night i was at the bulls game where the rockets were up 2 with about ~10-15 seconds left and inexplicably didn't foul derrick rose as he took the ball up from under his own basket and proceeded to glide down the court to a diagonal look at a 3pt shot, which he nailed as time expired to win the game. there's something entirely more personal about investing the time/$$$ to getting off of your ass and getting down to the stadium and having a whole proper evening of it that flipping on a game at home can't compete with. it's mainly about the en masse camaraderie with a group of people, mostly in terms of people you don't know (i'd rank them NFL > NHL > NBA > MLB and i'll report back on soccer if arsenal and/or spurs come out here this summer) so yeah you get a worse view of the action but a better overall view of the big picture (cuz watching thibodeau stand out on the court screaming ICEEEE all game is special like that), but mainly you get the ability to engage in the time-honored tradition of "peacocking" your status as a real/monied fan who stands out from the status quo watching it at home.

baseball stands apart from the other major sports as being more interwoven in the fabric of our culture (where's the "take me out to the basketball game" song?) not to mention playing outdoors during good weather extends itself more to the classic american "a day at the ballpark" ideal that literally has its roots in the very definition of "americana" alongside apple pies and chevrolet. as such i see baseball as more of its own little self-contained-universe of a traveling sideshow that appeals to families more, not to mention the sheer # of games = cheaper prices for the cheap seats so it's easier to bring a whole family out for it. sure baseball eventually gets into NBA/NHL/NFL "status" territory when you have stuff like personal milestone games, opening day, cubs/sox games, or playoffs/world-series, but there's so many chances to go and see it for so cheap that those are the exception and not the rule.


i originally had a longer post going into more detail about my thoughts here (...you're welcome) but basically i think it has something to do with the NBA/NHL having cultural differences in their types of average hardcore fans, as the NHL's superior live product during the regular season has made it a more of an "event" than going to a largely homogenized/sugar-coated NBA game in a meaningless regular season where only ~2-3 teams really have a chance of winning anything in the end.

ultimately, i reckon that it's that cultural thing because you can look up stats as to the average disposable income of the average fan (as families with kids who play hockey need to have all the $$$ invested in equipment, transportation, league costs, etc whereas basketball you just need a decent pair of shoes and a ball) and as such it's easier for the NHL to sell out arenas despite having a sport that's overall noticeably less popular than the NBA, and there's your disparity right there. aside from the elephant in the room that i'm not going to touch because the last thing i need to add to my board rep is that of an "elephant toucher."
Author:  Curious Hair [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
The other distinction is that the NHL has NFL levels of devotion in its seven-and-a-half Canadian markets. In terms of local passion, the NHL's lows are lower than the NBA (but damned if the Bucks aren't trying to be the hardwood Coyotes), but their highs are way higher. When you can count on Toronto to max out in revenue no matter how bad their teams are, you're going to have a nice revenue cushion. Even Boston takes its foot off the gas when the Celtics aren't great.
Author:  Mini Ditka [ Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Who sells out more arenas - the NBA or the NHL
5 of the teams on the sellout list are from Canada where the NBA has one team. So 10 NHL teams sell out in the US and 8 NBA teams sell out in the US. The NBA could have 9 teams if they moved a team to Seattle. But they would rather have the Sacramento team be bad in California than move them up the coast.

The other thing that should be noted is that the NBA has a limited number of superstars and superstars teaming up is bad for the league because it puts the teams they leave into the lottery.
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