Well the problems with those films is the lack of drama anyway, so your criticisms are valid, and obvious.

What never worked was the love story between Padme and Anakin and that's not the fault of the arc, that's the fault of the execution in the writing/acting.

I think ultimately, it was set up OK. But now that I think about it, you're right there shouldn't be a whole MOVIE dedicated to Palpatine and Vader, but maybe there shouldn't have been a third movie at all. I know that breaks the "trilogy" but "Phantom Menace" was just such a banal piece of crap, it should've been scrapped from the getgo.

Obi-Wan should have been the main character. After all, he is a focal point in the Skywalker legacy, and he is a *man* when we're first introduced rather than a child, like Anakin. I don't think you needed to start Anakin out that young to show he wasn't "born evil". If you're going to start him that young, have a reason why. And that doesn't mean spending a half an hour on a flippin pod race so you can pimp a PS game.

I guess I can admit now, that I've ranted so much about this, I did actually write my own drafts years ago of what I wanted Star Wars episodes I & II to be. I know you're happy for me.

Here were some things I had in my drafts:

- Anakin was young, and spoiled. He wasn't a bad kid. He was misunderstood from the start. Obi-Wan saw he had strong points, and took him in to train. None of the Jedi council wanted this to happen, especially Yoda who had a lot of fear about it. Qui-Gon was the only one who wanted to give Anakin a chance.

- Darth Maul was a more barbaric version of Vader--Palpatine had a hard on for this guy and used him, knowing his weaknesses for intellect, as simply a guy to screw everything up in the galactic council. Maul was not killed in the battle with Qui-Gon. He kills Qui-Gon and Anakin kills Maul, catching Palpatine's eye for his next pupil--especially because Anakin has shown some "rage".

- Anakin is jealous of Obi-Wan's friendship with Padme and as he gets older, he's increasingly vocal about his jealousy and thinks the two are having an affair. He seeks council from Palpatine more and more, and believes in him.

- Anakin has a childhood friend named Ben Attinger who dies in a fatal battle against the clones, and Obi-Wan takes the name of Ben when he leaves for Tattooine and becomes a hermit. He takes it as a memorial of his "friendship" with Anakin.

There were other kick ass things I did ( ) but it was frustrating and euphoric at the same time writing them. I was like, "Wow this is really good! No one will ever see this or care!"

Oh well.

"Maybe there shouldn't have been a third movie at all". Yeah as we said, the story is stretched too thin, but I guess since the first film was given Episode IV, you had to lead up to that. But maybe the prequels could have been just Episodes II and III, and I could have been left a mystery. Or maybe revisited someday later. But three movies is three times as much money too, I guess, but realistically it needed to be a trilogy I guess. But yes, what seems to be the case is that there are "key" moments sprinkled throughout all three films, but the events surrounding them often feel like filler.

I guess Obi-Wan could have been the main character, but that would jar the symmetry between the two trilogies. Why have the second trilogy focus on Anakin after the downfall (although I know that wasn't the original intent when IV was written), when he was a secondary character in the first trilogy? Part of the whole problem here is the logistics of making six films in a 20 year span, and not having intended to do so from the get-go. So, it's flawed, but I just think it's not fatally flawed.

But you don't like the podrace? See, that's one of the moments that I think is a true throwback to the feel of the first three films! When you called Episode I crap, I was going to defend it with the podrace. That's classic Lucas and I thought it was a clever centerpiece to the movie. I would also point out the lightsaber duel, and I actually like a lot of the Tatooine sequence, as I think the lady who played Shmi did a good job, as did Liam Neeson. Don't like the two Gungan sequences, and of course Jar Jar is a bit much.

I like seeing Anakin as a toddler, even if just for completeness. I want to know where the character started if I'm going to be invested in his rise and fall. And I like the take Lucas and Bill Moyers had on it, where they wondered what Hitler was like at nine years old. Lucas wanted to show how the most pure of humans still have frailties and vulnerabilities, and also needed to show how his compassion for his mother and his desire to right his "wrong" at her death led to his downfall.

A lot of what you wrote is actually true to the films! The part where Anakin is jealous of Obi-Wan, even to the point of where he suspects an affair with Padme, was actually an integral part of the story originally, and was scrapped (for the most part - some elements remain, such as when Anakin arrives at home and questions Padme on why Obi-Wan was there). But he is most definitely jealous of Obi-Wan, because Obi-Wan has many of the characteristics that Padme likes, and that Anakin feels he can never develop himself. Hence a large part of the reason he has such rage against him that he is willing to kill him, even though he loves him and respects him as his teacher. (Again, a shame this isn't better described by the film.)

I haven't talked about Star Wars in a long time (...a long time), so I guess I'm making up for lost time.

The thing with that scene is, you have to go back to Episode II when he killed the Tusken Raiders. This is what that scene was put in there for, to set this up. At that time, you could identify with him, even if what he did was wrong, because it was an emotional outburst against the people he identified as killing his mother. But then, as of that moment, he has a body count. You can't go back after something like that. He spends the next 10 years conflicted over that moment, but as the threat of Padme's death looms, he is scared, and he remembers all over again the events in which he failed to save his mother from death. He begins again to justify that slaughter in his mind. Thus now he can justify these heinous acts, because he is so desperate to prevent a repeat of the tragedy he suffered once before. Now he wants to slaughter before he is hurt, not after.

That's the whole key to how a "good" person can act so "bad": he rationalizes his actions in his mind. He feels justified.

But, once again, the movie fails to make that point. When it happens on screen it's a total shock and feels completely misplaced. A polished screenwriter could have corrected that.

I think we're arguing about the same things, so there's no point in going further into this.

Yeah a lot of what I was writing was similar to what was in the prequels but I was talking more along the lines of, I was fleshing out more character development than what Lucas & co was doing.

Like I said, the *arc* worked, it was the execution that failed.

Killing Tuscan raiders and killing innocent children are very different things. Tuscan raiders were also somewhat bad guys. It was the "beginning" but at least you could relate. It just made no sense and it was obvious that Lucas had no idea what to do so he threw in something as heinous as killing children to get his point across. That's juvenile writing.

But I have to go back to this one:



The podrace was exactly the type of fanboy crap I couldn't tolerate. There was nothing at stake dramatically in that entire sequence. You knew Anakin was going to win from the start, and you knew how he was going to win. It was a "throwback" only in aesthetics, which was exactly what a lot of the prequels were. The light sabre fights WERE amazing to watch, but they were merely spectacles. There was no drama behind them. The sabre fights between Vader and Skywalker were ABOUT something. The sabre fight between Maul and Qui-Gon was just about acrobatics.

The films lacked the key element that the original trilogy didn't, and that was heart. And in a story about love and betrayal, with no heart...there's no story.

No arguments here at all, I'm just a dope who talks too much about Star Wars.



Actually they're not different, because there were innocent children in that camp. That was a very important point of that event. Anakin has killed women and children already. So the Jedi younglings was not breaking new ground for him.

That's the problem with cutting that scene so short in Ep II. They really should have stayed on that scene longer and hinted more at what happened. I guess they couldn't in a PG movie, I don't know. Don't forget too that Palpatine has been prodding Anakin towards justifying that slaughter, as is indicated early in Ep III, when Anakin kills Dooku against the Jedi code, and Palpatine tells him it's acceptable, like what he did to the Tusken Raiders.

You're right there was nothing at stake in the podrace and thus there is no suspense, but, it was a race. It was just meant to be fun, and I think it was a throwback in the sense that it was a speed-driven scene in a unique environment, that's all.

And yes, the saber duels in I and II are just spectacles (not sure it's fair to say that about III though), but really, aren't the ones in IV, V, and VI too? Yes there is more tension in those than in I and II, but at the end of the day, a lightsaber duel is a lightsaber duel. When you list the great dramatic moments in the history of cinema, the lightsaber duel in IV isn't going to be on that list. We can't get too carried away with the "drama" of the OT. And again I think these issues with I and II go back to it being a prologue; they don't have the luxury of being in the thick of the character arcs. But certainly things could have been written differently to change that.

But these films, and I'm talking about both trilogies, are most certainly NOT dramas. I'm pretty sure Lucas has no interest in making a drama, and I'm not sure he really could. That's one reason why the new films don't easily relate to today's audiences. Today, unless you're going to see a comedy, people go to the movies to see a good drama. But that's not what these films offer at all. They're moving images, expressing themes, commentary, and original ideas in a visual manner. I think Lucas sees cinema as being at its best when films are big and pretty. Acting performances are best left to TV and the live stage. He couldn't care less if Natalie Portman or anyone else is poorly reading her awkward dialogue. I mean, he really couldn't care less. Now, anyone is free to argue with that philosophy, but at least the films make more sense when you understand them in this way.

The Jedi younglings were like his own though. But I don't want to keep on about it.



Did not have to last 20 friggin minutes.



The lightsabre duel in episode V has *so* much to it, I think it DOES go down in the history of great dramatic moments in cinema. Just because it's sci-fi doesn't mean it can't be quality.



But there IS DRAMA within the original trilogy. This would be a lot more fun sitting at a bar with some brews, rather than just typing these incredibly long posts. Don't get me wrong I could talk about "Star Wars" all day and night. I once spent an hour and a half at work when I used to work at amazon.com, right after "Menace" came out, with this total fangirl and actually sort of changed her mind that it was a "great" movie. I mean, we brought in frickin' Tolkein and shit. It was epic.

I probably could make better arguments if I had the star wars universe stuff in front of me. used to be a bookmark when i was writing those scripts, making sure my research was right. but i still stand by the fact that episodes IV-VI were in a galaxy far, far away from I-III. a much cooler one.

You know you want to.

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Paws Up

I'm just so freaking glad I started this thread! I love reading everything y'all have to say.

Episode I - Ewan had that Jedi "swagger".......*drool*

Episode II - the love scene at the end left me wanting to see Episode III.right.then.

Episode III - I saw it with my parents...just like Episode IV. "you were the chosen one", the end that wraps up how Episode IV comes to be. I was crying as the lights came on. (I was also crying at the end of "Good Will Hunting", ShakespeareIn Love" and "Patch Williams"....all movies seen with my parents...is that a pattern?)

Episode IV - Han Solo
Episode V - Han Solo
Episode VI - Han Solo

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I follow where my mind goes...

For me I didn't need a Han Solo type personality to make 1-3 work. IMO, 1-3 would have been better off with Maul lasting longer. And Vader's early days as a Sith. The reason 5 was so tight was because the high persistent level of evil through out the movie. Remember a simple thing like when Han met Vader in the conference room and Vader blocked Han's blaster with his hand then used the force to rip the blaster from Han's hand. It's a very small moment but it embodies the feeling of helpless, doom, and evil.

Too many "feel good" story lines in 1 & 2.

The reason that SW works is because it's told in reverse point of view. I mean think of it if it was realistic. Humans find aliens and we're equal or superior in some cases. Don't you think it would be our nature to dominate the universe? Why would we go for a republic and equality? (see Nazi Germany). Well the very evil of this storyline is missing in 1-3 yet very present in 4-6. Simply put there's not enough evil overtones 1-3.

IDK, Lucas had a difficult job. To preserve the feel of 4-6 and create a story that invites a whole new younger generation to the SW universe is a lot to expect.

I agree, there is no strong villain in the first two (and a half) films, and I think that results in a lack of suspense and a lack of emotional investment by the viewer. I guess the point was, the evil was lurking in the background, ready to spring at any moment (which is often eluded to during the movies, and also in the title Phantom Menace). I guess that concept could work, but I think you could still have someone like Darth Maul be a bit more fleshed out and appear throughout the first two films. I think that would have helped.


Yes, although the point of the PT is how the evil empire came into being. I liked how Lucas made the evil come from within (both with the empire being the result of democracy becoming corrupt, and with Vader emerging from a vulnerable Anakin). Before the prequels, I never imagined the stormtroopers being the "good guys". Though of course when you consider history (I think a lot of the story is based - loosely - on the rise of the Third Reich) it makes sense.

The thing I like about it too is that in a sense, Anakin never really changes "sides". He just fails to realize that the "side" he's on has become corrupt, and what happens is, everyone around him actually changes sides, in a way "turning" on him (further adding to his paranoia). He remains with the Republic and the Chancellor and the army, while his friends are the ones that rebel.

It's funny that as much as people like you and me critique the prequels, every kid I know loved them, and finds the original movies boring. Now, whether those kids will carry the prequels with them as long as the older fans have carried the original films with them, remains to be seen. I would guess no, although, they do still sell a lot of merchandise even three years after the last film. While other big hits like Lord of the Rings (which is fantastic of course), the Matrix, etc have faded from the public consciousness.

you're still talking about this?

Never gets old my friend