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I believe I'm a victim of propaganda?
No. I believe you are one who is not aware of it. See how easy it it so dismiss one's idea's like you do? All you have to do is claim that you're a victim of a non-existant propaganda campaign and presto viola, dismissed argument.
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Well, Michael Moore disagrees with the government on just about everything; he makes movies which explain the nature of his disagreement. For some reason, a reason you tellingly refuse to name, you find that anti-American. I suspect that is because you are a victim of propaganda.
Michael Moore goes further than having a disagreement with the government. He seems to have a genuine dislike for this country. He seems to directly indict our political system, our standards and moors. This isn't just a disagreement, it's a skewering of facts, a twisting of the presentation of his half truths and innuendo, clever editing used to make his opponants look foolish.
Is is fair to have a documentary where ony one side is properly represented? Or is that a propoganda film?
Also, I am no victim of propoganda. What program or newspaper do you seem to think I read that indoctrenated me with said propoganda? Just because I disagree with you, MITC, does not make me a mindless drone. Refusing to acknowledge the points of a dissenting opinion, however, does.
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I suppose its hard to say. The overriding point is that the US isn't exceptional in that he could make such a film here.
Hard to say, we don't know, there's no fact here, but you're going to go ahead and make an overriding point? Using figures and facts that we cannot agree upon one way or another? Is the US "Exceptional" in this matter? Maybe not but certainly in the minority when you consider the population as a whole.
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Indeed. And the opinion that the US is the best place to live on earth is an example of an opinion; and opinion in your case, I suspect, isn't formed from a depth of knowledge from first-hand experience
Before you slam my first hand experience of the foreign worker may I question your first hand knowledge? Oh, you've only worked in the US? Then my point and opinion is just as valid as yours.
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No, in fact, they don't. All that excess production just ends up in the massive bank-rolls of the extremely wealthy. The percentage of total wealth in the US owned by the richest 1% of Americans just continues to increase, with no relative advances materially between you average Frenchmen and your average US citizen.
First, that isn't true that all that excess production just ends up in the hands of the extremely wealthy. Take for example the hard work and productivity of Broadcast.com, where, when sold 300 of 320 employees became millionaires. How about when Yahoo IPO'd?
And second, that increased productivity benefits those workers who do not become rich, by allowing their companies to continue their business and employ more workers.
Do you think that France with their 10% unemployment is a workers utopia? They have TWICE the percentage of unemployed workers that the US does by percentage. How's that productivity look when 1 in 10 cannot find a job. Here in the US, we're just over 5% unemployment and everyone is talking about how hard it is out there, how we're in recession. Imagine the US with DOUBLE that unemployment.
Worker Utopia indeed.
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Yes. Because it seems to me, they're still sovereign, and could opt out any time they liked.
well, they're not still sovereign as far as their econonmic matters go, unless they indeed to opt out, but they can't afford to opt out. So until the do opt out and are back on French resources only, then this argument is not relevant.
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Because US workers don't all get them. That some Americans do, doesn't change that fact. How some Americans do, clearly, is irrelevant.
Let me again reference the 10% unemployment rate in France, worker paradise. MITC, I just cannot wrap my mind around how the Government forcing business to give anyone days off makes for more happy, satisified workers. You can earn this in the US, without the Government giving it to you.
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?? So, I am to understand that you feel it's not "fucked up" for the government to limit the number of hours employers can have employees work, without paying them extra? Am I to understand you also feel that it isn't "fucked up" for the government to set a minimum wage which employers can pay workers?
If both are "yes," how do you come to the conclusion that its "fucked up" for the government to set a minimum amount of vacation days employers much allow employees?
Actually, I do find minimum wage a little stupid. I am surprised that the Government does not realize that this forces higher inflation. Also, paying someone 8/hr to mop floors is ridiculous.
As far as the 40 hour work week goes, MITC, I firmly believe that the government, at one point, had to set some sort of norm of what an "average" work day is. That is understandable, but how that is related to the government forcing employers to pay workers who are not working is shady at best.
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So, are you just outright denying that people can be ruined by sickness, despite examples provided in the very movie to which this topic is dedicated?
Sure, MITC, someone can be ruined by sickness. Wow. Huge relavation there.
Do we refuse any and all forms of help to these people? No. We don't. Again, we must understand the base cause and effect. I agree that people can be ruined by sickness, but you make the assumption that that sickness is a direct result of their health coverage when you said...
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The fact is, many people are ruined by illness due to lack of UHC
when clearly the ruining factor is their illness. UHC, or lack thereof, did not cause the illness that "ruined" your examples.
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Yes, until there's outright slavery, freedom will never be achieved.
I have no clue what the hell you're trying to say here. Seriously. It makes no sense.
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That's pretty much the logical conclusion of your beliefs, don't you think? Guy refused to pay the debt. Now what?
Matt, you shouldn't be making leaps of logic. Leave my logic to me.
I never said aything about debor prisons, nor did I advocate them.
So, now what?
There's legal action that can be taken against said debtor. He can have leins put on his home, so when he goes to sell, his debts are paid before his equity becomes profit. Seems fair.
Or he will have his wages garnished, so he will be FORCED to pay his debt.
He will lose his ability to borrow without colleteral again. This seems fair.
Once again, we are talking about people with high volume of credit card debt, people choosing not to pay or putting themselves in terrible financial positions thru mismanagement.
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It is, because I'm making a point of how much debt US citizens are trapped under
Well, these citizens are putting themselves under this debt thru stupid financial decisions.
You really want to improve the financial status of Americans? Leave the system alone. It works fine when used responsibly by informed consumers.
You want to improve this? Educate people on finance in school. that thread about "which CC to get" or whatever, showed me that some members of this board have no fucking clue how to run the finances of a household. No clue. Why not educate the public rather that allow everyone to Declare bankruptcy whenever they buy too much shit at Best Buy.
trapped under. That's actually making me laugh. Most debt that people are "trapped" under is of their own making thru stupid financial decisions. And no, I don't have sympathy for those folks.
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The taxation of wages and consumption before economic rents have been exhausted, specifically.
What?
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The policy of borrowing non-existent money from private banks, and spending that money into circulation, rather than just creating money by fiat, and the policy of having a money supply that is much too small, and complementing it with a system of fractional reserve banking, which allows banks to collect interest on non-existing money
.
How could this "keep people in debt"?
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Some are more fortunate than others.
This makes no sense MITC. If it were government policy and mandate that keeps people poor and in debt what I just won some lottery that put me in that position? Are you claiming that my situation is a result of luck rather than financial virtue and careful planning?
If I did it, then anyone can do it with again, careful planning, shunning excesses, then it is not a government policy that puts people in debt, it's people.
MITC you sure like to absolve the average person from the consequences of theior actions. You seem to think it's always someone elses fault. Don't you ever admit that the debts people have and their poor financial positions could be the result of poor planning? Isn't it ever the fault of the borrower that overborrowed? Aren't people ever responsible for their own actions in your world?
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I'm sure they'd love to. They can't afford to, however.
You're telling me that first, opportunity doesn't exist 15 miles away, then you follow that up with that people can't afford to move 15 miles???
Man, that's hilarious. They cannot afford to get jobs 15 miles away? Man, that's good.
Once again, MITC, opportunity is everywhere. In Gary Indiana someone can set up a new web service just like they can in Silicone Valley and make a ton of money. Or they can get on the train and head into Chicago, or move there.
They can't afford to, lolololol.
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Except for the fact that land is worth more now than then, and people these days are likely burdened by debt they're now unable to relinquish. Have you read the fine print on the credit cards? It's truly incredible what they can get away with. As The Onion pointedly reported, the credit cards are putting the ma and pa loansharks out of business.
Well, if the Onion came up with that it sure is hard to argue with. Great source.
The land is worth more now? Well, how many people are working in textile shops for $1 a week in today's world? How many folks are working in the hog lines for 80 hours for $0.25 an hour? There's much more money to be earned today, and land cost has gone up right along with it.
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Because full healthcare would provide them healthcare when they needed it -not just when they had a healthcare emergency.
You pay for it either way; if you treated them when they needed it, you'd save money when compared with treating them only in cases of emergency. Your philosophy would have you cut off your nose to spite your face on principle.
AGAIN, MATT, I BEG OF YOU TO READ.
Again, my friend with the DuPage health card gets to go to the doctor anytime he wants. He's gone twice this last month to get his "depression" meds changed.
he has a nebulizer for his breathing problem related to his fat ass.
He has no insurance policy and the fine folks of DuPage are paying for this.
And, these are not emergency room situations only. Why are you so careful;ly avoiding that? Again, Stroger hospital, not just an emergency room, filled with uninsured people taking advantage of Cook's uninsured health benefits.
We already have health care available for anyone who wants it. We don't have Universal care, but each county has a health board that will make sure that people get their medical care. I gave you one specific example of someone I know who does this. Perfectly healthy. Perfectly capable of work. Lazy as fuck, don't work becasue he's happier living in his parents house and playing video games all afternoon long, and DUPAGE CITIZENS pay for his health care.
hey Dupage citizens, is this fair to you?
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We are certainly missing both
No. We are not, and that kind of statement just makes me sick.
Take a look at how the olympics went down, see how it affected China's citizens, and the people they stole their houses from, tore down, to make a water cube. See how freedom of speech and freedom of religon is nonexistant there, then come back here and tell me we're missing freedom and justice.
That's just asinine.