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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:45 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Nas wrote:
How many teams sign a veteran QB and win a SB the following season?


Three teams come to mind since 2000:

Rams
Ravens (2000)
Saints


But, again, this is not a rookie vs free agent debate. That doesn't even merit discussion in my opinion.


Your list isn't accurate anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:45 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
That's because 10-15 QBs in the league suck. Jay Cutler is not among that group so he's going to have a job. With 6-9 QBs in next year's draft you will see a lot of those guy start playing because they are replacing old draft picks that sucked. Of those 9, 6 of them will suck, 2 will be decent, 1 will great or thereabouts. Then those 6 teams with shitty drafted QBs will go back and draft a bunch more shitty QBs. That is not a model, it's just the nature of the NFL.
"The nature of the NFL" indicates it is a common practice used for success. How is that not a model?


It's a vicious cycle. It's not a model. It's hard to find a good QB. No team is going to draft one, find out he's good, not pay him, and go find another one in the draft because the way to win is play young QBs.

You draft, if he's good, you keep him. If he sucks, you draft another QB.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:48 pm 
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Nas wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Nas wrote:
How many teams sign a veteran QB and win a SB the following season?


Three teams come to mind since 2000:

Rams
Ravens (2000)
Saints


But, again, this is not a rookie vs free agent debate. That doesn't even merit discussion in my opinion.


Your list isn't accurate anyway.


Well those were teams led by free agent QBs, to be sure. Did you mean it isn't accurate because they didn't win the SB the following season? If yes, then yes, that would be true for the Saints and perhaps the Ravens. Not sure about the Rams.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:49 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
We've never argued whether good, rookie QBs should start or not. You've said it demonstrates some sort of new-age model of doing things, while I've said teams like Indy and San Fran have benefited from simply doing the obvious thing to do.
Virtually every high draft pick QB starts now. That's why you won't answer the question as to how many first or second round QB's next year won't start next year. Some may not get the start on day one though they all might.


I did answer that question above, here it is again:

Quote:
The only rookie QBs who will start next year are those that show they get it during practices and OTAs. They will be summarily benched if they don't get it, or if they suck, which is pretty much the same thing that will happen to veteran QBs as well. The model, if any, is finding a good QB, and not necessarily young and cheap ones that you can use while enriching yourself in other areas. There are too many variables at play to really make it a model.


I don't know what you are trying to prove by saying virtually every high round pick starts now. I've never argued otherwise, and I don't see the point of arguing whether they should or shouldn't. The best guy always rises to the top, whether they're old or young - and that is not a model.
Give me a number. That is what I am asking.

You seem to think that the rookie QB's are starting because they "earned" it. I disagree. It seems to me that they are handed the job with virtually no interference besides a manufactured QB competition with no name cheaper veterans.

Let's say that the Bears don't resign Cutler. Will any team who drafts a rookie QB in the first or second round sign Cutler? If Matt Schaub becomes available. Will any of those teams sign Schaub?

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:49 pm 
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Roethlisberger signed an 8-year/$100 mildo contract and won the Super Bowl that year.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:49 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Last 17 QBs taken in the first round. How many are better than Cutler:

JaMarcus Russell
Brady Quinn
Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
Matthew Stafford
Josh Freeman
Mark Sanchez
Sam Bradford
Tim Tebow
Cam Newton
Christian Ponder
Blaine Gabbert
Jake Locker
Andrew Luck
Robert Griffin III
Ryan Tannehill
Brandon Weeden


When it comes to pure talent there aren't 10 QB's in the league right now that have more talent. We all know that doesn't get you far. Right now I would rather have 5 of the QB's on that list.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:52 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
veganfan21 wrote:
We've never argued whether good, rookie QBs should start or not. You've said it demonstrates some sort of new-age model of doing things, while I've said teams like Indy and San Fran have benefited from simply doing the obvious thing to do.
Virtually every high draft pick QB starts now. That's why you won't answer the question as to how many first or second round QB's next year won't start next year. Some may not get the start on day one though they all might.


I did answer that question above, here it is again:

Quote:
The only rookie QBs who will start next year are those that show they get it during practices and OTAs. They will be summarily benched if they don't get it, or if they suck, which is pretty much the same thing that will happen to veteran QBs as well. The model, if any, is finding a good QB, and not necessarily young and cheap ones that you can use while enriching yourself in other areas. There are too many variables at play to really make it a model.


I don't know what you are trying to prove by saying virtually every high round pick starts now. I've never argued otherwise, and I don't see the point of arguing whether they should or shouldn't. The best guy always rises to the top, whether they're old or young - and that is not a model.
Give me a number. That is what I am asking.

You seem to think that the rookie QB's are starting because they "earned" it. I disagree. It seems to me that they are handed the job with virtually no interference besides a manufactured QB competition with no name cheaper veterans.

Let's say that the Bears don't resign Cutler. Will any team who drafts a rookie QB in the first or second round sign Cutler? If Matt Schaub becomes available. Will any of those teams sign Schaub?


I don't have a number. I wouldn't be surprised if all of them start, or most of them, I don't have a problem with that. It may work or not, just like always.

As a fan I wouldn't be averse to signing a guy like Cutler or Schaub to be a stopgap while the rookie sits. That'd probably be more likely if the QB was a late round pick as opposed to being drafted in the top 15 or 20. A

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:53 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Let's say that the Bears don't resign Cutler. Will any team who drafts a rookie QB in the first or second round sign Cutler? If Matt Schaub becomes available. Will any of those teams sign Schaub?


That's not the decision the Bears face. No other team would likely do it because they'd probably have to sign him for 4 or 5 years so they could wait a year or two to get a QB in the system.

The Bears need only commit to Cutler for a year so they would need to get a QB in the development track earlier. New England drafts QBs all the time. Ryan Mallett is sitting there, 3rd rounder, never plays. Osweiller on Denver, 2nd rounder, never plays. What's the problem?

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:53 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Roethlisberger signed an 8-year/$100 mildo contract and won the Super Bowl that year.


I think Nas meant a free agent leaving one team to sign with a different team, or that's what I thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:55 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Roethlisberger signed an 8-year/$100 mildo contract and won the Super Bowl that year.


He also rapes women during the off season. I think the way the rookie scale is now and the offensive systems colleges are using it is going to be a lot easier to play rookies and have success right away. I would trade up in the draft to take a QB. It's not costing you $80M like it used to.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:58 pm 
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veganfan21 wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Roethlisberger signed an 8-year/$100 mildo contract and won the Super Bowl that year.


I think Nas meant a free agent leaving one team to sign with a different team, or that's what I thought.


I know. But that wasn't the question he asked. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:58 pm 
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Well, let's look at the list of guys taken in the 1st round NOT selected in the top 5 of the draft. The Bears will NOT have a top 5 pick.

Brady Quinn
Joe Flacco
Josh Freeman
Tim Tebow
Christian Ponder
Blaine Gabbert
Jake Locker
Ryan Tannehill
Brandon Weeden

Let's look at the guys taken in the 2nd round:

Tarvaris Jackson
Kellen Clemens
Kevin Kolb
John Beck
Drew Stanton
Chad Henne
Brian Brohm
Pat White
Jimmy Clausen
Andy Dalton
Colin Kaepernick
Brock Osweiler


3rd round??

Chris Simms
Dave Ragone
Matt Schaub
Charlie Frye
Andrew Walter
David Greene
Brodie Croyle
Charlie Whitehurst
Trent Edwards
Kevin O'Connell
Colt McCoy
Ryan Mallett
Russell Wilson
Nick Foles


Are we starting to see a pattern??

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:01 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Well, let's look at the list of guys taken in the 1st round NOT selected in the top 5 of the draft. The Bears will NOT have a top 5 pick.

Brady Quinn
Joe Flacco
Josh Freeman
Tim Tebow
Christian Ponder
Blaine Gabbert
Jake Locker
Ryan Tannehill
Brandon Weeden

Let's look at the guys taken in the 2nd round:

Tarvaris Jackson
Kellen Clemens
Kevin Kolb
John Beck
Drew Stanton
Chad Henne
Brian Brohm
Pat White
Jimmy Clausen
Andy Dalton
Colin Kaepernick
Brock Osweiler


3rd round??

Chris Simms
Dave Ragone
Matt Schaub
Charlie Frye
Andrew Walter
David Greene
Brodie Croyle
Charlie Whitehurst
Trent Edwards
Kevin O'Connell
Colt McCoy
Ryan Mallett
Russell Wilson
Nick Foles


Are we starting to see a pattern??

That is a hell of a lot of white people


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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:03 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Well, let's look at the list of guys taken in the 1st round NOT selected in the top 5 of the draft. The Bears will NOT have a top 5 pick.

Brady Quinn
Joe Flacco
Josh Freeman
Tim Tebow
Christian Ponder
Blaine Gabbert
Jake Locker
Ryan Tannehill
Brandon Weeden

Let's look at the guys taken in the 2nd round:

Tarvaris Jackson
Kellen Clemens
Kevin Kolb
John Beck
Drew Stanton
Chad Henne
Brian Brohm
Pat White
Jimmy Clausen
Andy Dalton
Colin Kaepernick
Brock Osweiler


3rd round??

Chris Simms
Dave Ragone
Matt Schaub
Charlie Frye
Andrew Walter
David Greene
Brodie Croyle
Charlie Whitehurst
Trent Edwards
Kevin O'Connell
Colt McCoy
Ryan Mallett
Russell Wilson
Nick Foles


Are we starting to see a pattern??


The draft is hit and miss. This shouldn't make you not go after a guy you believe can help your team.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:06 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Let's say that the Bears don't resign Cutler. Will any team who drafts a rookie QB in the first or second round sign Cutler? If Matt Schaub becomes available. Will any of those teams sign Schaub?


That's not the decision the Bears face. No other team would likely do it because they'd probably have to sign him for 4 or 5 years so they could wait a year or two to get a QB in the system.

The Bears need only commit to Cutler for a year so they would need to get a QB in the development track earlier. New England drafts QBs all the time. Ryan Mallett is sitting there, 3rd rounder, never plays. Osweiller on Denver, 2nd rounder, never plays. What's the problem?


Cutler will never be Manning or Brady or Rodgers (I thought Cutler was better in 2009 :oops: )?

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:07 pm 
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Like I said earlier, you should draft a QB evey single year. It is a total crapshoot. But to think you can pick ONE next year and he will START next year and be GOOD?? You are OUT OF YOUR MIND! The odds of that happening are minuscule.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:08 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Like I said earlier, you should draft a QB evey single year. It is a total crapshoot. But to think you can pick ONE next year and he will START next year and be GOOD?? You are OUT OF YOUR MIND! The odds of that happening are minuscule.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:12 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Well, let's look at the list of guys taken in the 1st round NOT selected in the top 5 of the draft. The Bears will NOT have a top 5 pick.

Brady Quinn
Joe Flacco
Josh Freeman
Tim Tebow
Christian Ponder
Blaine Gabbert
Jake Locker
Ryan Tannehill
Brandon Weeden

Let's look at the guys taken in the 2nd round:

Tarvaris Jackson
Kellen Clemens
Kevin Kolb
John Beck
Drew Stanton
Chad Henne
Brian Brohm
Pat White
Jimmy Clausen
Andy Dalton
Colin Kaepernick
Brock Osweiler


3rd round??

Chris Simms
Dave Ragone
Matt Schaub
Charlie Frye
Andrew Walter
David Greene
Brodie Croyle
Charlie Whitehurst
Trent Edwards
Kevin O'Connell
Colt McCoy
Ryan Mallett
Russell Wilson
Nick Foles


Are we starting to see a pattern??
So you'd give Cutler a 5 year deal? Why draft a QB ever?

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:13 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
The Bears need only commit to Cutler for a year so they would need to get a QB in the development track earlier. New England drafts QBs all the time. Ryan Mallett is sitting there, 3rd rounder, never plays. Osweiller on Denver, 2nd rounder, never plays. What's the problem?
It's easy to pay a lot of money for Manning or Brady. They are probably worth it.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:20 pm 
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Nas wrote:
To be clear I would love to have Cutler back at the right price until a rookie develops.


Rookies don't develop anymore, they start right away. Given that this years QB draft class is the best in many years, I would lean towards letting Jay go & drafting a QB or 2 & I'm starting to get the impression that neither Emery or Tresty are sold on Cutler.
The problem with letting Jay go is that Marshall will cry like a baby.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:21 pm 
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Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
The Bears need only commit to Cutler for a year so they would need to get a QB in the development track earlier. New England drafts QBs all the time. Ryan Mallett is sitting there, 3rd rounder, never plays. Osweiller on Denver, 2nd rounder, never plays. What's the problem?
It's easy to pay a lot of money for Manning or Brady. They are probably worth it.


I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:23 pm 
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Maybe 5 or 6.
Hatchetman wrote:
Last 17 QBs taken in the first round. How many are better than Cutler:

JaMarcus Russell
Brady Quinn
Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
Matthew Stafford
Josh Freeman
Mark Sanchez
Sam Bradford
Tim Tebow
Cam Newton
Christian Ponder
Blaine Gabbert
Jake Locker
Andrew Luck
Robert Griffin III
Ryan Tannehill
Brandon Weeden

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:25 pm 
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spmack wrote:
Maybe 5 or 6.
Hatchetman wrote:
Last 17 QBs taken in the first round. How many are better than Cutler:

JaMarcus Russell
Brady Quinn
Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
Matthew Stafford
Josh Freeman
Mark Sanchez
Sam Bradford
Tim Tebow
Cam Newton
Christian Ponder
Blaine Gabbert
Jake Locker
Andrew Luck
Robert Griffin III
Ryan Tannehill
Brandon Weeden

:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:28 pm 
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Spmack - all those guys were taken in the top five picks. Won't be an option for the beloved.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:31 pm 
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Hatchetman wrote:
Spmack - all those guys were taken in the top five picks. Won't be an option for the beloved.
Why would you ever draft a QB? They mostly suck. Right?

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:31 pm 
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If Jay Cutler is replaced by a rookie, please name me the last QB that was replaced by a rookie that was better than Jay Cutler not due to an injury.

These guys playing this year are replacing Ryan Fitzpatrick, Mark Sanchez, and Josh Freeman.

The year before it was Matt Painter, Rex Grossman, Matt Moore, Colt McCoy, and Tavaris Jackson.

The before that it was Jimmy Clausen, 36 year-old Matt Hasselbeck, David Garrard (injured), Carson Palmer, and 42 year-old Brett Favre.

These teams start guys because they don't have other options, not because it's their best way to win.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:37 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
The Bears need only commit to Cutler for a year so they would need to get a QB in the development track earlier. New England drafts QBs all the time. Ryan Mallett is sitting there, 3rd rounder, never plays. Osweiller on Denver, 2nd rounder, never plays. What's the problem?
It's easy to pay a lot of money for Manning or Brady. They are probably worth it.


I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
New England and the Broncos can justify paying a veteran big money because they are worth the money. It would be hard to say that Cutler will provide $16 million in value to the Bears with a team with so many gaping holes.

It's easier to accept Andy Dalton at his salary.

I just don't know what is really gained by an extra year of Cutler. Either build around him for the next 5 years or build around a rookie.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:42 pm 
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If you are going to spend any money at any position it should be for the QB since he, moreso than any other position, could win you games even if the rest of your team sucks. Cutler has demonstrated, in the NFL, that he can win games. He can lose games, too.

But, on the whole, unless you plan on completely tanking and rebuilding, getting rid of Marshall, Forte, Bennett, etc., having Cutler gives you a better chance to win games than any rookie QB you'd get in the late 1st/2nd round.

But, a drafted guy could benefit from being in the system and working their way in over time. Meanwhile, you don't completely suck at football.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:44 pm 
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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
If Jay Cutler is replaced by a rookie, please name me the last QB that was replaced by a rookie that was better than Jay Cutler not due to an injury.
Carson Palmer in Cincinnati. David Garrard in Jacksonville.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutler out 6-8 weeks
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:46 pm 
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pizza_Place: World Fluoridation Conspiracy Pizza & WINGS!
Boilermaker Rick wrote:
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote:
If Jay Cutler is replaced by a rookie, please name me the last QB that was replaced by a rookie that was better than Jay Cutler not due to an injury.
Carson Palmer in Cincinnati. David Garrard in Jacksonville.


Palmer vowed to retire before he'd ever play for the Bengals again.

Garrard was injured and didn't play for another 3 years.

Should I go back further? 2010 includes Kyle Orton.

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