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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 11:25 am 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Just checking on this. Has Mr. Pocket Presence Hawger chimed in at any point this week in order to blame Caleb's 7 sacks on a lack of "Pocket Presence"? Just Asking A Question
Hawg Ass wrote:
He could have pocket presence and slide up.

I honestly haven’t watched enough of the Bears games to comment, as you can go back and see, I haven’t really commented on Caleb. My preference is all Bears quarterback past, present and future all suck!!!!

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 11:31 am 
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Hawg Ass wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Just checking on this. Has Mr. Pocket Presence Hawger chimed in at any point this week in order to blame Caleb's 7 sacks on a lack of "Pocket Presence"? Just Asking A Question
Hawg Ass wrote:
He could have pocket presence and slide up.

I honestly haven’t watched enough of the Bears games to comment, as you can go back and see, I haven’t really commented on Caleb. My preference is all Bears quarterback past, present and future all suck!!!!

Fair enough but when you relentlessly bashed Justin Fields during the preseason for missed snaps, recovered fumbles, and sacks you hadn't seen those games either as I recall.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 11:36 am 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Hawg Ass wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Just checking on this. Has Mr. Pocket Presence Hawger chimed in at any point this week in order to blame Caleb's 7 sacks on a lack of "Pocket Presence"? Just Asking A Question
Hawg Ass wrote:
He could have pocket presence and slide up.

I honestly haven’t watched enough of the Bears games to comment, as you can go back and see, I haven’t really commented on Caleb. My preference is all Bears quarterback past, present and future all suck!!!!

Fair enough but when you relentlessly bashed Justin Fields during the preseason for missed snaps, recovered fumbles, and sacks you hadn't seen those games either as I recall.

Actually, I have seen way more Fields than I should have, damn you LTG :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 11:56 am 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
And no matter what the Bears say now about Caleb being a Rookie QB who they knew would undergo the sort of "growing pains" that all Rookies undergo, it's clear that this wasn't the case before they drafted him. They expected this kid to hit the ground running. Doesn't mean be elite, but just not suck. If not then they would never have cleared the deck for him by giving Fields away for a 6th Rd pick. They have a coach (and possibly a GM too) fighting for his job and the way to save it is by trading for a QB that you expect to be ready in year 2? Makes little sense.




The problem with this comment is it assumes 100% of the blame rests on Calebs shoulders and ignores any other option like the O-Line playing a role too for example.


And its funny, because on the flip side you seem to do nothing but want to point out that you feel Fields was given all the blame while all the other stuff was ignored -indicating that at least in theory you feel the coaches, play calling and O-line were a problem too.

So what is it LTG, do you believe that all of this is on Caleb even tho almost nothing about the O-line has changed in years or are you just playing the role of hypocrite here willing to blame all the past 3 years 'woes' on everything but Justin while laying 100% of the blame all the sudden on a Rookie QB because 'other' people influenced you to do so because you want to be a contrarian?


You cant pretend to be smart by being stupid.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 12:08 pm 
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NME wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
And no matter what the Bears say now about Caleb being a Rookie QB who they knew would undergo the sort of "growing pains" that all Rookies undergo, it's clear that this wasn't the case before they drafted him. They expected this kid to hit the ground running. Doesn't mean be elite, but just not suck. If not then they would never have cleared the deck for him by giving Fields away for a 6th Rd pick. They have a coach (and possibly a GM too) fighting for his job and the way to save it is by trading for a QB that you expect to be ready in year 2? Makes little sense.




The problem with this comment is it assumes 100% of the blame rests on Calebs shoulders and ignores any other option like the O-Line playing a role too for example.


And its funny, because on the flip side you seem to do nothing but want to point out that you feel Fields was given all the blame while all the other stuff was ignored -indicating that at least in theory you feel the coaches, play calling and O-line were a problem too.

So what is it LTG, do you believe that all of this is on Caleb even tho almost nothing about the O-line has changed in years or are you just playing the role of hypocrite here willing to blame all the past 3 years 'woes' on everything but Justin while laying 100% of the blame all the sudden on a Rookie QB because 'other' people influenced you to do so because you want to be a contrarian?


You cant pretend to be smart by being stupid.


Do you want me to point to all of the posts here from the summer which he literally stated that the OLine was not the problem? Now I know you're going to say "no not you" but I sure don't recall you ever saying that they were either. Or disagreeing with the notion.

And even with the very same shitty line, Justin Fields played better last season.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 12:14 pm 
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I'll point out again that through 2 games that Williams is getting far less time to throw than Fields did last year. It's not close. hopefully that changes soon.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 12:17 pm 
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Brick wrote:
I'll point out again that through 2 games that Williams is getting far less time to throw than Fields did last year. It's not close. hopefully that changes soon.


There is a stat out there which makes this comment laughable :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 12:40 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:

Do you want me to point to all of the posts here from the summer which he literally stated that the OLine was not the problem? Now I know you're going to say "no not you" but I sure don't recall you ever saying that they were either. Or disagreeing with the notion.



I absolutely did say there were multiple problems, (I said the same for (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky as well) I won't dig it up because I dont need to. 90% of my posts on this board are in this section and I'm confident if you want to call me out here you won't be able to do it by researching my posts because you'll find me mentioning constantly that the O-line is a problem and so is the Head Coach who is a glorified coordinator.


And tell you what, I'll do you a solid here and state it flat out again today -Fields was absolutely not 100% to blame for the Bears offensive problems during his tenure here. The O-line was bad, the coaching was bad, his rookie season was tossed by asking him to bail out an entire coaching staff and front office on death row then feeding him to an entire regime in his 2nd year that didn't choose him. Thats alot to ask, and it happened to Mitch as well.


I like Justin, cheered all 3 years for him and still hope he plays well as Ive been a fan of his since he was taking concussive hits from Clemson defenders in the college playoffs.


I'll also add that I'd seen enough after year 3 that I didn't think he'd improve much more regardless of coaching or O-line. He struggles to read defenses, bails way too quick out of plays looking to run, doesn't keep his eyes downfield, struggles to consistently get thru multiple reads, almost never throws with anticipation, holds on to the ball too long, and has a slow release (a bit of a wind up).. theres more but I'll leave it at that. Im certainly not a poster that jumps on and off of bandwagons. I do my best to try and let things play out and when Ive seen enough? I put it out there.



Quote:
And even with the very same shitty line, Justin Fields played better last season.



Ok, so this is what I meant by 'not trying to be smart while being stupid' -you aren't dumb LTG, you know why this is a throw away comment -you've been posting long enough. Justin was in year 3 of his career, and year number 2 of the same offense. Of course theres a good chance he'd look better than a rookie QB.



I mentioned this in another post but I'll mention here too -I'm giving this time to play out, just like I did for Mitch, and just like I did for Justin. I promise you if we get into year 3 and this shit hasn't changed I'll be right there saying Caleb isn't the guy.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 12:51 pm 
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NME wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:

Do you want me to point to all of the posts here from the summer which he literally stated that the OLine was not the problem? Now I know you're going to say "no not you" but I sure don't recall you ever saying that they were either. Or disagreeing with the notion.



I absolutely did say there were multiple problems, (I said the same for (Pro Bowl QB) (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky as well) I won't dig it up because I dont need to. 90% of my posts on this board are in this section and I'm confident if you want to call me out here you won't be able to do it by researching my posts because you'll find me mentioning constantly that the O-line is a problem and so is the Head Coach who is a glorified coordinator.


And tell you what, I'll do you a solid here and state it flat out again today -Fields was absolutely not 100% to blame for the Bears offensive problems during his tenure here. The O-line was bad, the coaching was bad, his rookie season was tossed by asking him to bail out an entire coaching staff and front office on death row then feeding him to an entire regime in his 2nd year that didn't choose him. Thats alot to ask, and it happened to Mitch as well.


I like Justin, cheered all 3 years for him and still hope he plays well as Ive been a fan of his since he was taking concussive hits from Clemson defenders in the college playoffs.


I'll also add that I'd seen enough after year 3 that I didn't think he'd improve much more regardless of coaching or O-line. He struggles to read defenses, bails way too quick out of plays looking to run, doesn't keep his eyes downfield, struggles to consistently get thru multiple reads, almost never throws with anticipation, holds on to the ball too long, and has a slow release (a bit of a wind up).. theres more but I'll leave it at that. Im certainly not a poster that jumps on and off of bandwagons. I do my best to try and let things play out and when Ive seen enough? I put it out there.



Quote:
And even with the very same shitty line, Justin Fields played better last season.



Ok, so this is what I meant by 'not trying to be smart while being stupid' -you aren't dumb LTG, you know why this is a throw away comment -you've been posting long enough. Justin was in year 3 of his career, and year number 2 of the same offense. Of course theres a good chance he'd look better than a rookie QB.



I mentioned this in another post but I'll mention here too -I'm giving this time to play out, just like I did for Mitch, and just like I did for Justin. I promise you if we get into year 3 and this shit hasn't changed I'll be right there saying Caleb isn't the guy.


Here is my issue NME. Poster after Poster said that Caleb was better as a College QB. It didn't matter if he is in year 1 or 15. People stated that he was better and Fields sucked no matter what. I never heard about experience being a factor until Williams came out the gate sucking.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 12:52 pm 
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NME wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:

Do you want me to point to all of the posts here from the summer which he literally stated that the OLine was not the problem? Now I know you're going to say "no not you" but I sure don't recall you ever saying that they were either. Or disagreeing with the notion.



I absolutely did say there were multiple problems, (I said the same for (Pro Bowl QB) (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky as well) I won't dig it up because I dont need to. 90% of my posts on this board are in this section and I'm confident if you want to call me out here you won't be able to do it by researching my posts because you'll find me mentioning constantly that the O-line is a problem and so is the Head Coach who is a glorified coordinator.


And tell you what, I'll do you a solid here and state it flat out again today -Fields was absolutely not 100% to blame for the Bears offensive problems during his tenure here. The O-line was bad, the coaching was bad, his rookie season was tossed by asking him to bail out an entire coaching staff and front office on death row then feeding him to an entire regime in his 2nd year that didn't choose him. Thats alot to ask, and it happened to Mitch as well.


I like Justin, cheered all 3 years for him and still hope he plays well as Ive been a fan of his since he was taking concussive hits from Clemson defenders in the college playoffs.


I'll also add that I'd seen enough after year 3 that I didn't think he'd improve much more regardless of coaching or O-line. He struggles to read defenses, bails way too quick out of plays looking to run, doesn't keep his eyes downfield, struggles to consistently get thru multiple reads, almost never throws with anticipation, holds on to the ball too long, and has a slow release (a bit of a wind up).. theres more but I'll leave it at that. Im certainly not a poster that jumps on and off of bandwagons. I do my best to try and let things play out and when Ive seen enough? I put it out there.



Quote:
And even with the very same shitty line, Justin Fields played better last season.



Ok, so this is what I meant by 'not trying to be smart while being stupid' -you aren't dumb LTG, you know why this is a throw away comment -you've been posting long enough. Justin was in year 3 of his career, and year number 2 of the same offense. Of course theres a good chance he'd look better than a rookie QB.



I mentioned this in another post but I'll mention here too -I'm giving this time to play out, just like I did for Mitch, and just like I did for Justin. I promise you if we get into year 3 and this shit hasn't changed I'll be right there saying Caleb isn't the guy.

Caleb does NOT get the same amount of rope Justin got. No chance.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 12:56 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
NME wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:

Do you want me to point to all of the posts here from the summer which he literally stated that the OLine was not the problem? Now I know you're going to say "no not you" but I sure don't recall you ever saying that they were either. Or disagreeing with the notion.



I absolutely did say there were multiple problems, (I said the same for (Pro Bowl QB) (Pro Bowl QB) (Pro Bowl QB) Trubisky as well) I won't dig it up because I dont need to. 90% of my posts on this board are in this section and I'm confident if you want to call me out here you won't be able to do it by researching my posts because you'll find me mentioning constantly that the O-line is a problem and so is the Head Coach who is a glorified coordinator.


And tell you what, I'll do you a solid here and state it flat out again today -Fields was absolutely not 100% to blame for the Bears offensive problems during his tenure here. The O-line was bad, the coaching was bad, his rookie season was tossed by asking him to bail out an entire coaching staff and front office on death row then feeding him to an entire regime in his 2nd year that didn't choose him. Thats alot to ask, and it happened to Mitch as well.


I like Justin, cheered all 3 years for him and still hope he plays well as Ive been a fan of his since he was taking concussive hits from Clemson defenders in the college playoffs.


I'll also add that I'd seen enough after year 3 that I didn't think he'd improve much more regardless of coaching or O-line. He struggles to read defenses, bails way too quick out of plays looking to run, doesn't keep his eyes downfield, struggles to consistently get thru multiple reads, almost never throws with anticipation, holds on to the ball too long, and has a slow release (a bit of a wind up).. theres more but I'll leave it at that. Im certainly not a poster that jumps on and off of bandwagons. I do my best to try and let things play out and when Ive seen enough? I put it out there.



Quote:
And even with the very same shitty line, Justin Fields played better last season.



Ok, so this is what I meant by 'not trying to be smart while being stupid' -you aren't dumb LTG, you know why this is a throw away comment -you've been posting long enough. Justin was in year 3 of his career, and year number 2 of the same offense. Of course theres a good chance he'd look better than a rookie QB.



I mentioned this in another post but I'll mention here too -I'm giving this time to play out, just like I did for Mitch, and just like I did for Justin. I promise you if we get into year 3 and this shit hasn't changed I'll be right there saying Caleb isn't the guy.

Caleb does NOT get the same amount of rope Justin got. No chance.


The Bears aren't actively tanking during the first 2 years of this kid's career either.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 2:12 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
I'll point out again that through 2 games that Williams is getting far less time to throw than Fields did last year. It's not close. hopefully that changes soon.


There is a stat out there which makes this comment laughable :lol: :lol:

What is it? Time to throw and pocket time are tracked by two different sites. Both say Fields in Chicago got a lot more time so far.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 2:32 pm 
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Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
I'll point out again that through 2 games that Williams is getting far less time to throw than Fields did last year. It's not close. hopefully that changes soon.


There is a stat out there which makes this comment laughable :lol: :lol:

What is it? Time to throw and pocket time are tracked by two different sites. Both say Fields in Chicago got a lot more time so far.


This is just one of them. Bears were 30th in Caused Pressure Rate Last Season
https://ftnfantasy.com/nfl/caused-press ... 3-offenses

Quote:
To help provide some clarity, we’re introducing something we’re calling “Caused Pressure Rate”. A team’s caused pressure rate is their pressure rate only when at least one offensive lineman is charted as being responsible – blown blocks and other similar mistakes. The higher a team’s caused pressure rate, the more frequently the line was blowing assignments
.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 3:03 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
I'll point out again that through 2 games that Williams is getting far less time to throw than Fields did last year. It's not close. hopefully that changes soon.


There is a stat out there which makes this comment laughable :lol: :lol:

What is it? Time to throw and pocket time are tracked by two different sites. Both say Fields in Chicago got a lot more time so far.


This is just one of them. Bears were 30th in Caused Pressure Rate Last Season
https://ftnfantasy.com/nfl/caused-press ... 3-offenses

Quote:
To help provide some clarity, we’re introducing something we’re calling “Caused Pressure Rate”. A team’s caused pressure rate is their pressure rate only when at least one offensive lineman is charted as being responsible – blown blocks and other similar mistakes. The higher a team’s caused pressure rate, the more frequently the line was blowing assignments
.

Well, this year the Bears HAVE to be tops. I've never seen this many whiffs and turnstyles since early Justin. Add on the constant pancaking of the center and no run game, it may be worse.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 3:06 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
I'll point out again that through 2 games that Williams is getting far less time to throw than Fields did last year. It's not close. hopefully that changes soon.


There is a stat out there which makes this comment laughable :lol: :lol:

What is it? Time to throw and pocket time are tracked by two different sites. Both say Fields in Chicago got a lot more time so far.


This is just one of them. Bears were 30th in Caused Pressure Rate Last Season
https://ftnfantasy.com/nfl/caused-press ... 3-offenses

Quote:
To help provide some clarity, we’re introducing something we’re calling “Caused Pressure Rate”. A team’s caused pressure rate is their pressure rate only when at least one offensive lineman is charted as being responsible – blown blocks and other similar mistakes. The higher a team’s caused pressure rate, the more frequently the line was blowing assignments
.

Well, this year the Bears HAVE to be tops. I've never seen this many whiffs and turnstyles since early Justin. Add on the constant pancaking of the center and no run game, it may be worse.


Nah all of Justin's sacks were due to his holding the ball too long. That or failing to "read defenses" or lack of "Pocket awareness". Can't be any different now. No, no, no, don't crap me!

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 3:19 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
I'll point out again that through 2 games that Williams is getting far less time to throw than Fields did last year. It's not close. hopefully that changes soon.


There is a stat out there which makes this comment laughable :lol: :lol:

What is it? Time to throw and pocket time are tracked by two different sites. Both say Fields in Chicago got a lot more time so far.


This is just one of them. Bears were 30th in Caused Pressure Rate Last Season
https://ftnfantasy.com/nfl/caused-press ... 3-offenses

Quote:
To help provide some clarity, we’re introducing something we’re calling “Caused Pressure Rate”. A team’s caused pressure rate is their pressure rate only when at least one offensive lineman is charted as being responsible – blown blocks and other similar mistakes. The higher a team’s caused pressure rate, the more frequently the line was blowing assignments
.

Let's see when the 2024 numbers come out before we can compare.

He had the most time in the league to throw last year among players who threw more than 1 pass.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 3:27 pm 
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Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
I'll point out again that through 2 games that Williams is getting far less time to throw than Fields did last year. It's not close. hopefully that changes soon.


There is a stat out there which makes this comment laughable :lol: :lol:

What is it? Time to throw and pocket time are tracked by two different sites. Both say Fields in Chicago got a lot more time so far.


This is just one of them. Bears were 30th in Caused Pressure Rate Last Season
https://ftnfantasy.com/nfl/caused-press ... 3-offenses

Quote:
To help provide some clarity, we’re introducing something we’re calling “Caused Pressure Rate”. A team’s caused pressure rate is their pressure rate only when at least one offensive lineman is charted as being responsible – blown blocks and other similar mistakes. The higher a team’s caused pressure rate, the more frequently the line was blowing assignments
.

Let's see when the 2024 numbers come out before we can compare.

He had the most time in the league to throw last year among players who threw more than 1 pass.


He created the most time to throw in the league with his mobility and the stat that I produced clearly demonstrated.that.

As does the stats on the Bears O-Line play on passing plays.

Fact is the Bears OLine sucked last year too and you claimed that it didn't..And as usual you were proven wrong

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Last edited by The Doctor Of Style on Sat Sep 21, 2024 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 3:30 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
I'll point out again that through 2 games that Williams is getting far less time to throw than Fields did last year. It's not close. hopefully that changes soon.


There is a stat out there which makes this comment laughable :lol: :lol:

What is it? Time to throw and pocket time are tracked by two different sites. Both say Fields in Chicago got a lot more time so far.


This is just one of them. Bears were 30th in Caused Pressure Rate Last Season
https://ftnfantasy.com/nfl/caused-press ... 3-offenses

Quote:
To help provide some clarity, we’re introducing something we’re calling “Caused Pressure Rate”. A team’s caused pressure rate is their pressure rate only when at least one offensive lineman is charted as being responsible – blown blocks and other similar mistakes. The higher a team’s caused pressure rate, the more frequently the line was blowing assignments
.

Let's see when the 2024 numbers come out before we can compare.

He had the most time in the league to throw last year among players who threw more than 1 pass.


He created the most time to throw in the league with his mobility and the stat that I produced clearly demonstrated.that.

As does the stats on the Bears O-Line play on passing plays

That's not what your stats say.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 3:32 pm 
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Brick wrote:
That's not what your stats say.


He's Gaslighting again. Shocking :lol: :lol: Your moves are too predictable at this point for you to ever be taken seriously

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 3:34 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
That's not what your stats say.


He's Gaslighting again. Shocking :lol: :lol: Your moves are too predictable at this point for you to ever be taken seriously

There is no stat there that says he created the most time to throw in the league.

That stat says the Bears offensive line by their own mistakes gave up more hurries than average though.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 3:42 pm 
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Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
That's not what your stats say.


He's Gaslighting again. Shocking :lol: :lol: Your moves are too predictable at this point for you to ever be taken seriously

There is no stat there that says he created the most time to throw in the league.

That stat says the Bears offensive line by their own mistakes gave up more hurries than average though.


The stat you keep citing has scrambling ability factored in. The one that I cited clearly contradicts your contention that the line wasn't the problem. And yet you still argue nonetheless. More stats which make you seem silly
Quote:
Justin Fields under pressure early
Bears QB Justin Fields dodged enough pass rushers to help move Chicago into Minnesota territory, but Cairo Santos' 48-yard FG attempt was wide right.

The early pressure is nothing new for Fields as he entered the night having been pressured on a league-high 49.4% of his dropbacks this season, which is up from the league-leading 45.9% pressure rate he faced in 2022.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 3:46 pm 
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Time To Throw and Pocket Time is about how long he has until pressure comes.

The whole point is he holds it too long. That's because he would rather scramble because he is a good to great runner and a terrible passer.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 3:56 pm 
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Brick wrote:
Time To Throw and Pocket Time is about how long he has until pressure comes.

The whole point is he holds it too long. That's because he would rather scramble because he is a good to great runner and a terrible passer.


Brick I provided a stat which clearly stated that the pass blocking sucked and you're still arguing anyway. As stated you're too predictable dude. All you do is discredit whatever refutes what you have to say. It's old. There are other stats out there as well.

Now the guy you like is getting his ears pinned back and you claim it's about the line of a sudden. They always sucked. Not just this season

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 3:56 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Here is my issue NME. Poster after Poster said that Caleb was better as a College QB. It didn't matter if he is in year 1 or 15. People stated that he was better and Fields sucked no matter what. I never heard about experience being a factor until Williams came out the gate sucking.



While I'd agree there were plenty of people who got ahead of their skis with this -especially in the media- there were voices like mine that were a bit more grounded. So while I can see your point I feel some of your issue is that you latched onto the extreme side of the opinions and disregarded some of the more objective ones, which is fine when youre only debating directly with those voices.. but I'd also expect you to be objective even tho youre dealing with people you feel arent returning the favor.

I guess what I'm saying is I wonder why youre approach isn't closer to mine which is to acknowledge the shortcomings around Williams (line, coaches) while also pointing out some of your criticisms of Williams too. I get that youre debating with people here and there that aren't reasonable, but to me thats no reason to abandon reasonable positions yourself.


After all, I think you, me, Brick, Nas and anyone else in this debate can all agree that the offensive line play has been poor for Justin and now Caleb, and that this affects their performance while not always being the only thing that affects their performance.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 4:05 pm 
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NME wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Here is my issue NME. Poster after Poster said that Caleb was better as a College QB. It didn't matter if he is in year 1 or 15. People stated that he was better and Fields sucked no matter what. I never heard about experience being a factor until Williams came out the gate sucking.



While I'd agree there were plenty of people who got ahead of their skis with this -especially in the media- there were voices like mine that were a bit more grounded. So while I can see your point I feel some of your issue is that you latched onto the extreme side of the opinions and disregarded some of the more objective ones, which is fine when youre only debating directly with those voices.. but I'd also expect you to be objective even tho youre dealing with people you feel arent returning the favor.

I guess what I'm saying is I wonder why youre approach isn't closer to mine which is to acknowledge the shortcomings around Williams (line, coaches) while also pointing out some of your criticisms of Williams too. I get that youre debating with people here and there that aren't reasonable, but to me thats no reason to abandon reasonable positions yourself.


After all, I think you, me, Brick, Nas and anyone else in this debate can all agree that the offensive line play has been poor for Justin and now Caleb, and that this affects their performance while not always being the only thing that affects their performance.


I agree that the line and the coaching sucks too, but I was told that the "great ones" are able to overcome this. I admit you have been more reasonable in your analysis. However on some of it I just can't remember if you were in with the herd or not.

I do seem to remember you discounting some of the obvious red flags like size and performance against better college teams though. As we as low he performed in training camp and the preseason too. He has consistently struggled against Frontline quality defenses going back to his college days.
That has to be a cause for concern whether someone likes the kid or not.

And I suspect that is why Moore was exacerbated last week. I suspect that it wasn't just due to that one pass. It probably was a reaction to what he has witnessed in the kid's play overall going back to training camp or mini camp.
By all accounts he didn't light it up there either.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 4:06 pm 
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Nardi wrote:
Caleb does NOT get the same amount of rope Justin got. No chance.




I think that depends on how all this plays out -for example, if things play out the same for the start of Calebs career as they did for Jusins and the entire staff is tanked after year 1.. we may have to see how this goes for 2 more seasons.


This is exactly why I thought dumping virtually the entire coaching staff outside of the HC was a terrible idea. And I think thats something most of us can agree on.


Eberflus was the Captain of that ship, he can't blame hitting the iceberg on everyone else when he was the one steering the damn ship. I have zero respect for him and I can't see how any adult in that locker room can either. I certainly wouldn't tolerate any speeches from him talking about accountability.



The Doctor Of Style wrote:
The Bears aren't actively tanking during the first 2 years of this kid's career either.




They werent actively tanking in Justins 1st season either.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 4:08 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
Time To Throw and Pocket Time is about how long he has until pressure comes.

The whole point is he holds it too long. That's because he would rather scramble because he is a good to great runner and a terrible passer.


Brick I provided a stat which clearly stated that the pass blocking sucked and you're still arguing anyway. As stated you're too predictable dude. All you do is discredit whatever refutes what you have to say. It's old. There are other stats out there as well.

Now the guy you like is getting his ears pinned back and you claim it's about the line of a sudden. They always sucked. Not just this season

You are misusing the stat. Don't blame me for that.

He had more time to throw last year than any QB who threw more than 1 pass. Your stat, while interesting and it does tell a slightly different story on pressure doesn't change that. He holds the ball too long. That's a fact.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 4:14 pm 
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Brick wrote:
The Doctor Of Style wrote:
Brick wrote:
Time To Throw and Pocket Time is about how long he has until pressure comes.

The whole point is he holds it too long. That's because he would rather scramble because he is a good to great runner and a terrible passer.


Brick I provided a stat which clearly stated that the pass blocking sucked and you're still arguing anyway. As stated you're too predictable dude. All you do is discredit whatever refutes what you have to say. It's old. There are other stats out there as well.

Now the guy you like is getting his ears pinned back and you claim it's about the line of a sudden. They always sucked. Not just this season

You are misusing the stat. Don't blame me for that.

He had more time to throw last year than any QB who threw more than 1 pass. Your stat, while interesting and it does tell a slightly different story on pressure doesn't change that. He holds the ball too long. That's a fact.


Brick are there any posts that you have ever made which attributed Justin Fields sacks to the Offensive Line? Just Asking A Question

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 4:18 pm 
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And by the way this appears to be a contradiction of sorts.

Brick wrote:
The offensive line is also at a major disadvantage because Foles is immobile even when you judge him against other quarterbacks that aren't really good at running. Even Drew Brees can be a threat to run if the field opens up. Foles as he approaches the line of scrimmage does everything in his power to make sure he can still throw the ball. Defenses can play far more aggressive when there is no way that the quarterback can hurt them with even a 5 yard run.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2024 4:22 pm 
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The Doctor Of Style wrote:

I agree that the line and the coaching sucks too, but I was told that the "great ones" are able to overcome this. I admit you have been more reasonable in your analysis but on some of it I just can't remember if you were in with the herd or not actually.



Whats your opinion on this, do you think the great ones can?


My personal take is that it depends, I've seen Patrick Mahomes and Tom Brady fold in games where their O-line fell apart while I've also seen cats like Aaron Rodgers light the league up behind poor line play. I think its circumstantial.


Quote:
I do seem to remember you discounting some of the obvious red flags like size and performance against better college teams though. As we as low he performed in training camp and the preseason too. He has consistently struggled against Frontline quality defenses going back to his college days.
That has to be a cause for concern whether someone likes the kid or not.



Ok, thats fair but I did also provide details on why I felt that way. For example, Caleb is the same size as Mahomes. I also pointed out that batted down passes aren't mutually exclusive with being 'short' and there are metrics that prove that. As for his performance against ranked opponents? It certainly wasn't a deciding factor for Mahomes at the next level when he struggled just as much against certain competition.


Keep in mind there are those who will also discredit players that come from successful programs too saying that they were only good because they were surrounded by so much talent. Fields fell into this category and I defended him when people brought it up.


I could go on, but the point is I don't typically make generalized or sweeping statements (unless live in a game thread where emotions are running high lol).


Quote:
And I suspect that is why Moore was exacerbated last week. I suspect that it wasn't just due to that one pass. It probably was a reaction to what he has witnessed in the kid's play overall going back to training camp or mini camp.
By all accounts he didn't light it up there either.



I have a different opinion of this -I dont think his outburst was as personal as you may think. I think its more that he's tired of being in this situation, with Carolina, with the Bears last year.. and yet again in another developmental year with the same team. After all he was quick to sign this off season without trying to tie things up and reset the WR market like most other players of his caliber do. I dont think he has a personal problem with Caleb, I think he wants to win already and is frustrated that he continues to wind up in these developmental windows with teams.

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