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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:20 am 
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For the 100th time who said Jones was a great back? Who said he was even an elite back? I said great SEASONS. If there isn't anything to measure if he was great in 2004 and 2005 how can you say he wasn't? You change your point every other post. Jones was ranked 9th out of 147 backs which would put him in the top 6% of the league. It's my opinion and I'm sure a lot people would agree that he had back to back great seasons. I back mine up with #'s and facts and you back yours up with nothing but your opinion. Jones was traded by the Cardinals and the Bucs wanted to re-sign him but the Bears offered a starting job and more money. I've asked you what you consider a great year and you still can't tell me. How many RB's had a great year in your opinion? What type of numbers would a back have to have in order for you to consider his season great?


1)You're seriously comparing Jones' performance to ALL other NFL running backs--not just the starters--to make the claim that he had great seasons? Why stop there? Why not compare him to college, high school and Pop Warner backs, too? That way, Jones would be in the top .001% of all running backs. By your logic, Kyle Orton had a good season last year because he would rank in the top 25% of all NFL QBs. I guess we should start him over Grossman and Griese, right? For that matter, the last-ranked NFL starting QB and running back should never be replaced because they're always statistically superior to the league's backups, right? Your argument obviously undercuts itself here.

2)Your claim that the Bucs had a high opinion of Jones because they coveted him as a backup is equally surreal. The fact that they didn't think he was starting material obviously means that didn't think he was that good.

3)I haven't changed my points. First, I said Jones's stats aren't great. They're not. In 2005, he ranked 10th in TDs, 9th in yards and 5th in YPC. The rankings of 9 and 10 mean he's above average for a starter. And above average is great only by your diminished standards. The #5 ranking for YPC is impressive, but again, it's way behind the league leaders and doesn't stand out historically as a great number--and neither do Jones's rushing yards or TDs. I haven't introduced any further statistics into the debate because I don't need to do so. Jones' numbers aren't great from a historical or single-season perspective.

But as I've said, I don't think stats tell the full story. The Bears had a tremendous run-blocking O-line last year and Jones did not take advantage of his opportunities to the extent that the NFL's elite backs would. He amply demonstrated that he possesses 0 elite running back skills. That's my opinion, but apparently it's shared by the Bears--because they're trying to replace him, just like Arizona and Tampa did.

4)You've argued in other posts that Jones isn't a top running back because he has ONLY had two great seasons and therefore hasn't proven himself on a long-term basis. Let's examine that premise. What if Jones had consecutive 1800- or 2000-yard seasons(instead of his 2004 and 2005 totals)? Would you still rank him as less than a top 3 back? Not likely. But you won't rank Jones better than 10 right now because his performance relative to his peers hasn't actually been great over the past two seasons. So it's not the short time frame (of two seasons) that's preventing you ranking Jones as an elite back; rather, it's his less than stellar performance within that time frame that's shaping your opinion.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:29 pm 
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[quote]All I know is you keep telling me Jones isn't a great back(never said he was to begin with) [quote]

This simply isn't true. I have argued that Jones didn't have a great season subjectively or objectively. I have, however, also shown that multiple NFL teams, including the Bears after his two allegedly great seasons, haven't held him in high regard. So he hasn't achieved great stats and his team is trying to replace him. Does that sound like a guy coming of two great seasons to you?

As far as your question about a top-5 ranking goes, such a position doesn't necessarily mean you have achieved greatness. For instance, if the MLB home run leader hits 50 home runs, but the #5 guy hits 25, that's not necessarily a great season for the #5 guy. Similarly, Jones' top-5 YPC is superficially impressive, but the raw number, 4.3, isn't itself a great stat compared to the league leaders and what others have done in past seasons.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:03 pm 
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My comment about Arizona and Tampa was to prove that you were wrong again.


For a guy who's as inexplicably arrogant as this comment demonstrates you to be, you really need to mount a stronger argument.

Your comments about Arizona prove what, exactly? That Tampa Bay thought he could be a backup and Arizona didn't want him at all? That really forwards your position.... :roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:19 pm 
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What my comments about Tampa and Arizona prove is that you continue to make statements without knowing what you are talking about


How?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:20 pm 
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This is WAY more entertaining that anything that I've read in the Velvet Lounge or Late Night with STU.....Wrestlemania 23...Nasty Boy Nastradamus vs. The Immortal Tall Midget with Woodridge Ryan as special guest referee for creating this format. This has been a hell of a read boys. I don't feel any need to interject whatsoever.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:21 pm 
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i know!
it's like internet fight club! :twisted:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:22 pm 
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Recent seasons by Alexander, Holmes and Faulk all strike me as great. As I've said, I don't have a fixed statistical barriers to determine greatness because I believe--and have shown--that stats can be deceptive. If my answer doesn't suit you, I don't really care.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:28 pm 
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TM you are just a stubborn narrow-minded guy. If the truth slapped you in the face and it was contrary to what you believe you would have a problem with it.


Not picking sides here, but that was hilarious.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:36 pm 
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TM you are just a stubborn narrow-minded guy. If the truth slapped you in the face and it was contrary to what you believe you would have a problem with it.


No, I'm really not. You just haven't provided any persuasive arguments. You consider a top-ten ranking great. That's fine, but as Beardown said, that's just above average. The top-5 ranking is more impressive, but it's not as a raw number. Where is the greatness? Where does Jones' total 05 yardage rank for RBs in a single season over the past decade? His YPC? Touchdowns? Top 5? No. Top 20? No. Top 100? No. That's supposed to be great?

You continue to mock my subjective definition of greatness, but your fixed, "objective" definition is a diminished standard at best. You trivialize the word to justify your weak argument. But hey, if the Bears show themselves to be the 10th best team in the NFL this year, at least you can still party like they just won the Superbowl.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:40 pm 
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Yea, I don't even agree with Nas's comment, but it was one of those "Dr.Pepper is now on my keyboard" moments.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:40 pm 
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"Arizona and Tampa let him go, and the Bears sought to replace him almost immediately after acquiring him."

"Jones has bounced around the league like a pinball. As you say, there must be a reason for that, right? By your own logic, Jones can't be that good, otherwise he wouldn't have moved around as much as he has, correct?"


What does this prove? Arizona and Tampa did let him go...Tampa only wanted him as a backup. They let him go because they didn't think him good enough to be a starter. If you think Tampa's opinion of him is positive, again, you have really low standards.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:44 pm 
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Nas, I do admit I feel like youa re using the term elite and great kind of loosely here. Just my thought after reading three pages of this.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:48 pm 
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it's like internet fight club!


I thought we weren't supposed to talk about that...

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Last edited by Killer V on Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:48 pm 
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Don't be sorry. Like I said, this has been entertaining as hell with the back and forth between them. Makes me miss EG Greg.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:59 pm 
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Tampa Bay didn't want Jones as a starter. That's what this discussion has been about. I know you think it's fantastic that Jones is better than all 2nd and 3rd stringers in the league, but you are alone in that opinion.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:00 pm 
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How is that? Did I call him a great back or did I say he had a couple of great years?


How is that? Because you're attempting to redefine "above average" as great, that's how.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:02 pm 
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Quote:
it's like internet fight club!


I thought we weren't supposed to talk about that...


damnit....
right, forgot. 1st rule, 2nd rule.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:18 pm 
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You say his ypc wasn't good enough and that he didn't have a lot of 20+ yard runs. I point out that his stats were comparable or superior than all the elite backs in the league even though he played against 8 and 9 man fronts all year and you say the same thing.


But his stats simply aren't comparable or superior to all the elite backs in the league. He was 9th in yardage, 10th in TDs and 5th in YPC. And I don't think those stats are meaningless--rather, they mean he's above average,and had a good to very good season.

As for the % of total Bears offense comment, congratulations, he's the tallest midget. As for the elite back stats, I will have to look at those numbers when I have more time. But it's obviously possible that a great back can have a good rather than great year, so I don't see that you've proven anything about Jones.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:06 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
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it's like internet fight club!


I thought we weren't supposed to talk about that...


damnit....
right, forgot. 1st rule, 2nd rule.


I like Palahniuk's work. One of my most favorite contemporary writers.


Yes, Palahniuk's work is good, but is it great?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:14 pm 
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Yes, Palahniuk's work is good, but is it great?


Only if you're operating according to a diminished standard of greatness. :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:38 pm 
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Deuce McAllister led the league in rushing with similar stats in 2002 or 2003 but I guess that doesn't mean anything either.


Deuce McAllister has never led the NFL in rushing, by the way. In 2003 Jamal Lewis led the league with over 2000 yards. The year before the league leader was Rickey Williams with over 1800 yards.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:57 pm 
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Maybe I should have said Conference


Since your statement that Deuce Mcallister led the league in rushing was entirely inaccurate, yes, you should have said conference.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:50 pm 
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Now I know how others felt during my pizza argument.

I apologize to everyone.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:32 pm 
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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