4-1

minne would have beat the bears, but the bear D simply dominated the other 4 opponents.


but...the scores would have been more like

16-0
17-7
17-6
13-7

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Yeah, probably 4-1. Listen, people tend to forget that he was a rookie 4th round pick. I'm not saying that he would come out this season gun's blazing like Grossman has (far, far from it actually....), but I still think (or at least hope) his performance would have drastically improved. Who knows though? And quite frankly I don't care too at this point.

Who's Kyle Orton?

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We all have private ails. The troublemakers are they who need public cures for their private ails.- Eric Hoffer

what about brian griese? do you still think they would be 5-0? I say 4-1.

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"Tubby? Oh yes, Tubby."

It is hard to say in either case but Orton would certainly benefit from the amazing play of Desmond Clark and Bernard Berrian. Clark and Berrian didn't do a good job last year no matter who was qb but this year they seem to be all world. Last year, Berrian and Clark were never open whether Rex or Kyle was in the game. Rex is doing amazingly well but he should thank god that two bears busts have decieded to come and play well for a season.

Grossman has done very well, but in my opinion, the biggest improvement in our offense has been by receivers.

Orton looks a little chubby. He also has a tendency to fumble or throw interceptions and lose close games. Our record would not be as good but it's a moot point.

I'm no Orton fan but last year may have screwed him up. You can't expect a rookie to develop if you are playing not to lose. Rex is given far more leeway and opportunities. I don't know how much they had to dumb down the offense for Orton but they allow Rex to try way more.

I can't wait to see how Rex develops as a player and a leader.

I'm no Orton apologist but I don't know if it's fair to compare the 2. Kyle Orton pretty much stinks. However, Rex has had a better part of 3 years to learn from the bench. He is deservedly provided with more opportunities and had training camps knowing he was the starter.

Orton was put in a pretty bad situation while Rex has always been in a pretty good one. Rex is way more talented though.

I certainly expected a quick response to my not giving Grossman all the credit for the offensive power we have(he gets at least 50% in my book) but to discount the accomplishments of Berrian and Clark is a little bit short sighted in my opinion. Rex has been great this year, but I am not shocked by that. Everyone knew he had a good arm and had shown flashes of brilliance. That is why people in the orginization had great expectations of him. You were predicting him to win us a super bowl this year. The two suprise performers on this team are Berrian and Clark. They have both stepped it up. I don't give Rex all the credit for that as they were absent last year when Grossman or Orton were in the game.

I am not saying Orton would be doing half as good as Grossman. I am saying that this years receiving core is much better than last years. That includes Rex, but also includes those two. Did you really think that Berrian would be better than Moose this year? Did you really think that Des Clark would be so good when everyone wanted to draft a tight end?

I realize I am being blasphemous to Rex by giving credit to two other breakout performers on the offense, but I don't think Rex is that good that below average receivers become all pro's simply because he is on the field.

I am saying that Orton and Greise would also have done better than last year since they had two more reliable targets, but not as good as Rex has.

To be clear, Rex is amazing, but give credit to two players that have elevated there game just as much as Rex has.

You are correct Nas. Let's give Angelo credit on this one. He saw what he had in Berrian and Clark. That's why he didn't draft a WR or TE in the draft. He knew these guys would produce if they had a decent QB. Rex has been more then decent. I was on his side draft day when everybody wanted to lynch him.

But I'll give you credit Nas. You saw greatness in Grossman. (we're all reminded by the picture below your name). I thought he'd be average in his first full season. That pro bowl prediction might come true. He's the 2nd best QB in the NFC behind McNabb.

Not necessarily.

Clark had 2 good games out of 5. That isn't enough to convince me of anything. And Berrian is a deep threat. We knew this from day 1. I still can't believe NFL defensive coordinators are letting him hurt them deep, especially when nobody else on the team (including Moose) is much of a threat over the top. Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for the Bears, but that's just flat-out inexcusable. When Berrian starts dicing you up underneath, then I'll be impressed. But for now, he's boom or bust. Rex is the one making it happen. Either way, I'm still not sold on this passing game. Moose is a solid possession receiver. Clark is a mediocre tight end. Berrian is a one-trick pony. Basically, you have a strong offensive line and a quality quarterback.

I will never allow my dislike for Jerry Angelo to interfere with my love for the Bears, but if this team wins it all, it will be in spite of Jerry not because of him.

Speaking of Angelo, I saw plenty of news articles calling for Angelo's head when the Bears were struggling - I think it's time for an article or two talking about the team he built...

Admittedly, I did question some of his moves, especially with the QB spot, but I'm also the first one to give credit to where it's due, and looking at the quality of talent on the field, plus the depth - thumbs up, and great job to Jerry Angelo.

Wow Bucket. There are alot of things teams can win in spite of. But never in the history of sports has a team won a championship in spite of their GM. Never. Cmon you're smarter then that.

Beardown, that's a totally subjective argument and could never be proven in either direction. It is my contention that Jerry Angelo is an average GM. I am sticking to it. I will not declare him a genius if the Bears win it all, nor would I ever root against the Bears for the satisfaction of being "right".

And BD, Jerry Angelo has been stroked plenty in the past 5 weeks. Which newspapers do you read?

It's not subjective. It's a fact. Any GM that wins a title did a hell of a job. He brought most of this roster in. (all key players except Urlacker, Brown, and Krutz) These great performances are based on his drafting and free agents. That can't be argued. Good play doesn't happen accidentally. You can win in spite of the coach. (See Barry Switzer) But never the GM.

Not decalring him a genious is one thing. I don't think he's a genious. But saying, if they win it, it's in spite of him is absolutly crazy.

That's horseshit. You're telling me that never in the history of sports has an average GM won a title?

Yes. That's what I'm saying. Especially in football with a 53 man roster. No it's not horse shit. I know you're about to give me examples. I'll shoot them down. Go.

I would classify KW as above average, 2 that jumped to mind for me were Jerry Krause and Brian Cashman.

Oh my God coach. He brought in Pods for Lee. He had a hell of a first half. Nobody wanted Contrerous. Nobody wanted Dye. Iguchi was a late off season move that nobody else in MLB thought of. Dustin Hermanson was lights out for the first 5 months of the season. Plus he made an out of the box hire of Ozzie Jeez, I can't beleive I have to argue this

Side note on KW. If the Sox didn't win it all and Reinsdorf brought in a new GM, Kenny could very easily have gone down in White Sox history as a reckless fool. Glad it didn't turn out that way...

Beardown, what are you, 12 years old? It's called body of work. KW has had that job for years, and so has Angelo, who by the by, still has a losing record during his tenure.

Yes Bucket, "if" it didn't work out. BUT IT DID WORK OUT. Jeez. And it did work out because of his moves. That's a lame argument. That's like saying if Walter Payton didn't have talent then he wouldn't be good. My God. LOL.

Hey, why am I being drug through the mud. Someone else may have drafted MJ, but it was ME whom implemented the coach to get him to adhere to the team concept, it was ME who ok'd the running of the Triangle Offense, it was me who drafted Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant, it was me who brought in the right role players. So fuck you. I'm a champion.

Williams had the job since 2000. Won it in 2005. Angelo got the job in 2002. We'll have back to back NFC north titles this year. I don't see your point. I don't think a 12 year old could.

You are beginning to rival Jesse Rogers with your analogies.

The Sox came extremely close to pissing it away last year, both in the regular season and in the playoffs (down 1-0 to LAA, phantom drop 3rd strike to save their asses from heading to Cali down 2-0).

P.S.-Beardown, you're so right on the mark about Angelo. Who else do you think brought in Ogunleye? Who else has drafted these studs in the later rounds? Who's idea was for it to bring in Lovie as coach? So he's had some misses, so what? What team and/or GM doesn't? Not every move is going to be a homerun. Who do you think is the brainstorm behind this operation, Virginia McCaskey?

The analogy was made to point out that you sound like Jesse. Came close to losing it? THEY WON IT. It's in the books. You can't take it away.