Past performance is not indicative of future results, Nas. If Rex continues to stink it up, I would not be opposed to seing what Griese can do. This is a championship defense and I would hate to see it wasted.

I agree Coach, Turner gives Grossman to may chances to screw up. I have an idea, run the f-ing ball. A 60-40 mix of run and pass should be in order. Use the play action more, that is where Rex is at his best.

_________________
We all have private ails. The troublemakers are they who need public cures for their private ails.- Eric Hoffer

if the ravens can win a super bowl with trent fucking dilfer, we can win one with rex.

_________________

It's his White Whale. We all have one I guess. I usually freak out around NBA & NFL draft time.

I understand your perspective Nas. All I am saying is that a mediocre Griese would be better than a bad Rex.
I am not one of those that wants Rex to fail. I hope he turns it around and takes them all the way. But the Bears will not win if we continue to see Dr. Flinginstein tossing it all over the field.
I agree with Coach, not all of this is Rex's fault. Turner and Wilson need to make changes and stop the bleeding. Start by running the ball more.

Oh, past performance was not indicitive of future results when Dilfer won his Superbowl either. He was basically the same QB as Griese. I know it sounds trite but the window of opportunity is small and this defense is good enough to win a Superbowl. I don't want to miss this opportunity because a young QB is developing. That's all I am saying.

_________________
We all have private ails. The troublemakers are they who need public cures for their private ails.- Eric Hoffer

Nas, I've been giving this a great deal of thought, so I thought I'd respond to your points in point-by-point fashion:

Who does that remind me of? GROSSMAN! Think about it for a second: first 5 games: great. Last 6? Eh. End result? Mediocre.


First point: in my mind, touchdowns are a hugely over-rated statistic. If your defense consistently gives you good field position you may be likely to get a lot of touchdowns; if you run a lot, you may get very few touchdowns. To me, touchdowns aren't especially indicative of QB performance. Interceptions are far more indicative of QB performance, in my mind (unless the receivers are horrible). Second point: 9 fumbles in 5 years. How many will Grossman lose in 5 years? I'm willing to bet far more than 9, if he manages to start for 5 years. 82 is an OK QB rating; nothing to write home about, but the bottom line is it's better than Grossman's rating (if anyone wants to take me up on it, I have $20 that says he wont end the year above 82, either; and I'd be happy to lose that bet!).


Completion percentage is a hugely important stat, in my mind; right there with interceptions. Both stats speak to how good the quarterback is at getting the ball to his receivers. With an offense like the Bears, I'd dare say that completion percentage is just about the most important concern. Supposedly, the Bears are supposed to be run-first; if that's the case, you're trying to move the ball with the run and mixing in an occasional pass. In such an offense, your main goal is to hit on the passes, with a minimum of turnovers. A good completion percentage would be a fine complement to a running game that has been moving the ball fairly well lately. With Grossman, it's true that you get huge chunks at a time on occasion, but you rarely get numerous drives where you move chains and continuously pick up first downs. I was going to respond to your post in the other thread, and before doing so, I looked up some stats. You were talking about Grossman's performances after the Cardinals game, and you were saying he had X good games, Y bad games and 1 mediocre game. But look at the game against the 49ers; the defense and special teams gave the offense a very short field several times early in the game; the offense was able to score on the short field and put together a drive or two, and they had them blown out at the half. But they were completely impotent in the second half. This has happened several times this season; if you look only at the numbers (touchdown passes, in particular), it appears as though the offense has been very good; but the fact is that the defense and the special teams has put them in good position on many occasions, and when the Bears get an early lead, Grossman is more free to chuck the deep ball, and the D is more free to go after the opposing QB.


And look at the teams he played for; ask yourself if you substituted Rex for Griese if Rex's numbers would be better. I don't see how anyone could figure they would be. Again, I'm not saying Griese is Montana, I'm just saying that Grossman will be the anchor that drags the Bears ship down.


And Marino never won a superbowl. You have to look at the performances, or the numbers can fool you. I've watched Rex, and the numbers can be damned, because I see a QB who has no shot at leading any team to a SB victory. Griese? Maybe. I look at Griese as a Dilfer type: a QB who's been around, had moderate success, and can manage an otherwise awesome team. Grossman looks to me like the guy who will blow it for the beloved.


I look for him to manage the offense. I'll take the 60% completion percentage. The running game is starting to work, and if we can get a passing game that doesn't involve 4 interceptions per game, we'll be fine. Would I prefer a Manning-like QB? Fuckin' A. But Grossman isn't Manning-like, and never will be. I wish the Bears would consider this and try and win this year.

Edited to add:

Oh, don't play: we all know you were fishing for a debate with me!

Seriously, it's been entertaining discussing the merits (or lack thereof) of Grossman in the last couple of days; it's given me a better understanding of the team, and a lot to consider in the next several weeks. That said, it looks like Grossman will be the guy, so this 8th beer I'm about to pound is to your being right, Nas.

_________________
You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

This is the abbreviated summary of my point. I wish Rex would get it done, but Sunday basically convinced me that he wont. I'm ready to see if Griese might be able to. It's worth the shot, given the trend we're seeing.

_________________
You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

if we merged griese and grossman into one....we'd still have one mediocre QB.

_________________

Ha! You're online now! Good stuff!

Sure. But you must remember that my argument is not so much that Griese is good, but that Rex is prohibitive to success. Mediocrity at the QB position isn't what you want, obviously, but it's better than what Grossman will give you, IMO. Grossman certainly will perform well on occasion, but I don't believe that, when you average it out, he's even mediocre. I believe that, when it's all said and done, he will hurt your team as much as he will help it. Sunday's game told me a lot: 5 turnovers recovered, yet the Bears lost.


Again, I point to Grossman's 4th quarter numbers. With an early lead, he's great; with the game on the line in a tough game, he's generally a disaster.


I don't think those teams were necessarily better than the Bears, offensively. Remember, in Denver, he was taking over a team led by one of the greatest QBs of all time. The running game was good there, true, but it's good with the Bears as well. The Bears success is a function of their defense, IMO.


That could be, but I can say the same of Grossman. Mark my words: Grossman will not lead the Bears to a SB. Not this year, and very likely not any year; but definitely not this year.


Worse yet to have one with a lower completion percentage and a ton of turnovers.


And Grossman's longest run is 2 yards. In my mind, you're trading trash for trash in this regard. Both suck balls when it comes to evading the rush.

_________________
You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

I believe Rex threw the ball to the wrong side of the reciever and that led to those 3 interceptions on Sunday. They were all similar routes. I was not pleased with Rex after the Miami game and blamed him for that loss. I am with the camp that blames the play calling (Turner) for the second loss though.

It looks like the Bears have some room to experiment. NE is a good team and they only lost by 4 points. I hope to some degree that is what they are doing. Rex can lose games for the Bears though.

Griese is not the answer to the Bears problems. I think they need to live and die by Rex or "Dilfer him" - just give him the ball and tell him not to screw up.

Either way the Bears are still in pretty good shape compared to the rest of the NFC.

Prescient brevity is the soul of Bear's talk Matt.

_________________
We all have private ails. The troublemakers are they who need public cures for their private ails.- Eric Hoffer

Again, he's no savior in my mind. I just think they need to see if they can have more success there. The grass is a brown-and-dead motherfucker with Grossman. I'm not kidding, I seriously have a sense for this:

1. Bartman (knew the Cubs would choke immediately)
2. Steelers last year (knew they'd be a force after they fucked the Bears; picked them for the SB at the beginning of the playoffs)
3. Mavericks (knew they'd be a force, even early in the season, when they demolished the Bulls)

I'm not even bragging here. I honest-to-god figured a championship run (or in the case of the Cubs, lack thereof) on a single performance in all these occasions. Sunday's game was one of those clear statements to me. Rex will not get it done. Period. Will Griese? Very possibly not. But they need to find out for sure. I'm sick of the Bears getting mashed at home in the playoffs, and I see it coming. Hell, since I know they wont make the change, I'll go on record and predict it now: they will get destroyed at home, first game, again.

_________________
You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

Holy shit Nas. I'm on board with you with Grossman as QB. But man, you are obsessed.

I'll say this. The Bears can win the Super Bowl with both QB's. The defense is that good. Grossman can do it and he's 11 games in. Griese is rusty and has never proven he's a savior in his decade career. The sad thing is if the Bears don't win it all the Griese lovers will shout that they would have won it with him. There will be no way to disprove that but let me just say there have been a bunch of good and great QB's who have never won a Super Bowl.

Marino
Manning
McNabb
Kelly
Moon
Tarkintan

I'm not putting Grossman in these guys league. I'm just saying there are other factors. I don't know how and if they will lose that post season game. It could be Grossman's fault. But I just want to offer some perspective. If Grossman is pressured and picked in the post season don't assume it wouldn't have happened to Griese. I've seen Griese for years. Grossman is much more skilled. He's young and makes mistakes. But I'm completely on board with living and dieing with him. I do understand the opposing arugument but I disagree.

Thankyou and God bless.

I think you're selling the Bears short/Denver long here. When Elway left, I knew that team would be unable to win.


I don't believe he does. He's managed to avoid total disaster of late, but I'd hardly praise his ability to get rid of the ball quickly.


It often takes Rex forever to throw the ball.


I wouldn't peg 6 games as 'great.' Like I was saying with the game against the 49ers, much of the success came from working off turnovers on a short field. I'd say more like 4 very good games (great means at least 300 yards, IMO), 3 OK games, 2 fairly bad games, and 2 abysmal games. Add it up, and he's been average at best about half of the time. Consider the crap the Bears were playing early in the season, and the immense contributions by the defense, and I don't think his accomplishments are particularly impressive.


And he piled up success working against bad teams on a short field. The stats are misleading, considering the easy early schedule and the short amount of time we have to go by.

_________________
You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

MattInTheCrown, if you truly have all these senses, how do you not sense Griese is not "it"? What have you seen of Griese that would make you think he'd give you a better chance at a SB title?



Unfortunately, I don't think the coaches were testing his limits but I didn't see Rex make the blatent piss poor decisions either. I'm not sure if they should Orton him but I don't see a better option.

Man there have been some QB debates in my life time but this takes the cake.

Tomzack vs Flutie

Tomzack vs Harbaugh

Krammer vs Walsh

Miller vs Mathews

Orton vs Grossman


I guess looking back at those it was a lose lose whoever we took. There's a Super Bowl at stake here so it's more heated. Although in 86 I thought Tomzack could have got us back after the McMahn injury. Wrong choice by Ditka to go with Flutie.

Good Greif Beardown just post the list of 40 QBs that have started since Brett Farve started for the Packers. That list is terrible.

I have to say as a 9 year old girl I was partial to Mike Tomczak. He is actually the reason I love football so much.

Take the SF game, for example:



Again, how many of those were on bombs? At least half, I'd say.


The running game was fairly successful that day; it doesn't hurt playing a shitty team such as the 9ers.


Looking back, I'm not all that impressed with the game against Seattle, and he only had one good half against the Giants.

_________________
You can't see me because of internet.

The landowner effectively owns part shares in millions of part-time slaves called, "taxpayers." -Roy L
A Personal Relationship with Jesus?

nas, i wouldn't say denver's recievers were that good. rod smith has about the same talent as moose. i'd take berian over any of those other wr's that denver had. i will admit their running game was GREAT though.


also the stat about griese never playing a playoff game is tarnished. true he's never played in a playoff game but he did lead his team to the playoffs but was unable to play because he stayed in a game, with a dislocated shoulder, to beat rival oakland. that's the leadership i'm lookin g for in rex that i've yet to see.

Manning-like numbers:

Manning after first 16 games


GS Att Comp Pct Yds YPA Lg TD Int Tkld 20+ 40+ Rate
16 575 326 56.7 3739 6.50 78 26 28 22/109 42 8 71.2

Grossman this year

11 346 192 55.5 2390 6.91 62 18 14 13/90 34 7 77.6


That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if Grossman had an MVP season in a couple years. The problem is we need him now and in two years.

Proof is in the numbers.

Palmer's first year

13 432 263 60.9 2897 6.71 76 18 18 25/178 34 8 77.3

Mcnabb's first full year

16 569 330 58.0 3365 5.91 70 21 13 45/262 45 5 77.8

Not everyone can be:

P.Rivers

11 331 215 65.0 2440 7.37 57 15 6 18/90 29 3 94.5

and

T.Brady

14 413 264 63.9 2843 6.88 91 18 12 41/216 32 6 86.5

manning and mcnabb were on losing teams. you have to compare grossman's stats to palmer and river's stats!

Palmer had a 77.3 rating and Grossman 77.6.

Manning had Harrison and M.Faulk his rookie year. Much better then anything Grossman has to work with.

D.Mcnabb is a special talent. Just ask his momma.

Rivers is having a great year, but he has LT to take the pressure off of him.

I freak out every year around the time of the Cannabis Cup.

_________________
"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public." ~ H.L. Mencken

If Griese was the quarterback for the dolphins game, would we have won?

If Griese was the quarterback for the patriots game, would we have won?

If Griese was the quarterback for GB,DET,MINN,SEA,AZ,BUFF,MIA,NYJ,NYG would we have won?

Would Griese have won the playoff game against Carolina last year?

Griese is not D.Marino waiting to take us to the promise land. He is a BACKUP quarterback who is here to BACKUP Grossman.

This isn't a black or white issue. If Grossman has 4 INTs and a fumble to go with those 5 TDs, then no, that's not a good game.

The only things that matter are wins, and Matt obviously doesn't trust Rex to not lose a game. And, he won't see anything to change his mind over these last few games as the opponents suck. Rex could throw 6 TDs in every game without a turnover and it won't matter, because he should do that against lesser opponents. If Rex has one more "bad" game, then Matt will feel vindicated.

_________________

i'll give you credit on the mcaffrey one nas. i forgot about him. i'm going to sit the rest of this one out. hopefully rex turns this slump around in the next 5 games. if not, all we can do is guess about what could of happened.

guys, look at who they play next; minnesota, @STL, tampa, @detroit, GB.



is rex does suck it up against those creampuff (maybe not so much the rams, but they still arent that good) teams, he doesnt deserve to be starting in the playoffs.

_________________

Looks like the next Wrestlemania Main Event is Nas vs. MattInTheCrown. Good Lord! I've never seen so much back and forth over a topic. I feel like I'm starting to read all the same points again. I think I'm going to take a vacation from the Bears section for a week...unless they lose (that's for you Nas).

I'm with you Ryan...

_________________
@audioidkid