We can judge you because you put your opinions on a message board.



How do you know for a fact it was vaccines and not something else?

If you use that logic, then you would not vaccinate your kids.

Our youngest has a better chance of dying from a vaccination then he has from dying because he didn't have one.

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Too much is being read into the government fund for liability of vaccines.

- The CDC or other government folks determined that vaccines and flu shots whatever are important.
- As they are not patented and so little margin involved no pharma corp will make it without subsidy or other arrangement.
- Any company in that vein has part of their biggest overhead legal liability/malpractice fears. It is part of why drugs cost so much.
- Also without insuring/shielding itself in some way no company makes anything.
- No matter what government think they had to create fund to entice corps to make vaccines for basically cost or very small profit.

You absolutely cannot read anything more into the existence of that fund when making the arguments being made here. I don't care if you are talking about something as basic as penicillin or b12 shots. A company needs to insure itself or have another arrangement or it does not get made.

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Elections have consequences.

He had an immediate physical reaction to the immunization including siezures. And they went on for 24 hours off and on afterwards.

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You have very strong thoughts on this, I get that. I know I, nor anyone else, is going to change your mind. I was just sharing how we came to our decision. We are past that decision, so I have no reason to have my mind changed now.

I respect that right of every parent to make the decision that best suits their family.

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"He is a loathsome, offensive brute
--yet I can't look away."

So anyway, Arthur Chu is a good heel

I can't remember the guy's name now, but summer of 2005, just a few months after Ken Jennings, there was a guy who had a long winning streak but none of Ken's boyish Mormon charm. I think maybe his name was Dave.

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Dave Batista.

You are a delight.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

This is ultimately why you have to trust science. I'm finding your participation in this thread a little bit confusing. Do you think vaccines cause autism? It isn't really a "Maybe they do, maybe they don't" conversation. There either is a link or there isn't. Right now, all research has indicated they do not. If that one guy hadn't blatantly falsified data we don't even think there is a chance there. However, when the idea is planted in someones head they eventually find a way to see it. Imagine you are standing outside and I point out that a cloud looks like a lion. It's almost impossible to get that idea out of your head even though clearly the cloud is not a lion. When someone hears "vaccines may cause autism" and then they know someone who develops autism it becomes something that is all too easy to link together though there are many other reasons why the coorelation could have happened. Oh, but you'll cite the increase in autism patients recently(ignoring the fact that vaccines have been given for decades). That is actually medicine advancing too. We understand the autism spectrum much better now. Many kids would not have been diagnosed as on the autism spectrum when we were kids.

Just like with any medical treatment, we may find out eventually that there is a safer or better way. That is how things move on. We can't doubt the whole system because of it. I don't think you understand the ramifications of widespread vaccine refusal. These diseases were killing a lot of kids and adults and the only thing holding them back is the fact that we are vaccinating. Diseases that were eradicated are already starting to come back because of this movement. Diseases are starting to mutate and become more vaccine-resistant which is even scarier. I know you think you are just being considerate to those who feel differently but this is a truly dangerous situation that will have serious implications down the line if it isn't shut down. A population of 10-20% non-immunized people will be a danger to everyone.
It is entirely possible that they found a safer substance to use. That isn't a bad thing. Medical advances that make things safer happen all the time. That isn't a reason to start making up connections that have no supportable evidence. Unless you are willing to give up on the whole medical system then you have to put some trust in it that the best current available answer is the right one. Medicine knows it isn't perfect, and that is why it is studied and reviewed all the time. It's the best answer we have right now, and millions of people are alive today because of vaccines.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

With all due respect, we aren't talking about actual known side effects of vaccines. Just like any medical procedure, there are actual risks of side effects. I am very sorry to hear that you have had to deal with that.

However, you still aren't making a case against vaccination. The side effects of vaccines are well known and the percentages indicate that even with those side effects, the cost of not vaccinating the general population is much worse. That is the true danger here, and especially as someone with a child who has had a reaction, you should be pushing hard for everyone to get vaccinated since I'm pretty sure that he or she will need as much herd immunity in the country as possible since there is obviously something that happened to vaccinations. That's the ironic thing. Your child had a negative reaction to a vaccine but will be much safer if the rest of the population continues to get vaccinated. There are people out there who can't get vaccinated for many reasons, and the anti-vaccination crowd is putting them at risk.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

As bernstein mentioned when he was discussing the subject the other day, a much more likely place to look for a connection is the advance in the age of the average set of parents.

Our society is structured in a way that discourages births at the parents' physical peaks. The last time this subject came up, some asshole accused me of being a child molester. The fact is, we can impose whatever social mores we like, but we can't fool our own biology. And that means a 13 year old girl and her 16 year old husband/boyfriend/lover/whatever are more likely to produce healthy offspring than a couple in their 40s.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

I was 21, and my wife was 19 when we were married.



And I didn't see you pulling out ole Danny B to prop up an argument.

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always so convenient

As BRick keeps pointing out, it's easy to be misled by one's personal experiences. I think if you look at societies where the average age of the parents is younger you will see less instances of autism (as well as other things like Down syndrome, etc.) That's not to say a pair of 16 year olds can't have an autistic child.

Besides that, bernstein wasn't stating that as a fact, and neither am I. It's just that it's a more logical place to look than getting hysterical over the falsified research of a doctor who has since lost his license and the inane bleatings of a Playboy model with plastic tits.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

So we're asking others to ignore their experiences or the experiences of others around them? That seems like an odd thing to ask.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

Yes. And no one is saying its easy. It's the same thing as my example with cigarettes. Knowing people who smoke packs a day and don't have medical issues doesn't mean you should do The same.


As someone already mentioned, someone had a kid who had side effects and they still vaccinated the other two kids. No one is saying there aren't risks, or that it's impossible for something to go wrong. But you have the weigh the risks and look at the big picture.

Not if it's leading you to draw bad conclusions. If I said I fell down and broke my leg yesterday and because I happened to be wearing a purple shirt I started cautioning others not to wear purple lest they break a leg, you'd think I was insane.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

Personal experiences are fine to draw from, as long as one is at least somewhat self-aware

That's not the same thing though JORR. We heard cigarettes didn't cause cancer until it did. The benefits may outweigh the risks but no one can conclusively say there isn't a link.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

But there's plenty of evidence linking cigarette smoking to diseases. There's no evidence of a link between vaccines and autism.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

There was a time where it was just considered anecdotal too.

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Be well

GO BEARS!!!

But in this instance, the only reason we're even discussing a link is due to falsified research followed by a D-list celebrity taking that ball and running with it.

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Anybody here seen my old friend Bobby?
Can you tell me where he's gone?
I thought I saw him walkin' up to The Hill
With Elon, Tulsi, and Don

There is no supportable evidence that there is a link. That is as good as you can possibly do. The whole medical system, and science in general, would cease to exist if we all followed that level of skepticism. It is virtually impossible to prove a negative. Our legal system, our scientific system, our medical system can't be expected to prove negatives.

If I published something that said that cotton clothing caused autism, there is no way to conclusively say there isn't a link. The smartest person in the world can't conclusively say there isn't a link. This is why we have to rely on the overwhelming current level of evidence. It's even possible that one day we will discover there is a link. However, we can't live in a medical world where the unknown future discoveries affect our current methods. If we did, and we stopped all vaccines, millions would die.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I believe there was actual hard evidence of it at least in the 1930s and probably before. This was a time when medical research was much worse. With the methods and testing of today, tobacco would immediately be discovered as dangerous. The fact that at one point the evidence of the dangers of smoking was purely anecdotal is more of a sign of how the system wasn't very strong for research.

However, when the evidence for smoking was purely anecdotal it shouldn't have been treated seriously either. Anecdotal evidence does more harm than good.

The thing that always seem lost here is what the cost of human lives would be if we stopped giving vaccines. We are talking millions of deaths here.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

I had measles as a kid but my kids had choice for vaccine so that must be fairly recent. I have seen some toss numbers in here but would be nice if someone had the time to post CDC charts of chicken pox, dpt, polio deaths etc over time. Especially showing the time before and after vaccine.

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Elections have consequences.

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You do not talk to me like that! I work too hard to deal with this stuff! I work too hard! I'm an important member of the CSFMB! I drive a Dodge Stratus!

Intelligent and, more importantly, informed debate essentially begins and ends with the factual information found at that link.

Do very rare outliers exist? Of course, that's why the phrase "exception to the rule" exists.

To make sweeping decisions based inordinately on rare exceptions is foolish and, in regards to this topic, dangerous.

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Power is always in the hands of the masses of men. What oppresses the masses is their own ignorance, their own short-sighted selfishness.
- Henry George

My wife is the anti-Jenny McCarthy.

My son had a DR appt yesterday and he was due to get some shots. She didnt realize it and Hank Jr wasnt prepared so he got a little freaked out. She called me crying talking about how bad it was seeing him act scared and crying like that. I calmed her down and asked her what shots he got. Her response: "I dont know, they said it was time for his shots and I kinda spaced out when they explained which ones. What does it matter? I wouldnt have said no anyway." So hopefully they gave him the ANTI-polio shot...

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Science is right til it's wrong, just wait is flawed logic to me. Why wouldn't you demand it be right as soon as possible?

I have said it's possible there is a link between autism and vaccinations. Don't know. My concern is that we know it causes seizures, rashes, paralysis, etc. I find your too bad so sad attitude odd.